I Want More Nentir Vale!

[DMZ2112]

I kind of feel like KoTB is kind of nowhere... I never associated it with any particular setting.

I don't think KotB was ever officially assigned to any campaign world, but if it were, it would certainly be on Mystara, as it was a Basic Dungeons & Dragons module. I am fairly certain that it predated the agglomeration of D&D setting material that became the "Known World."

Speaking of which, it's exactly that "agglomeration" feeling that I like about D&D4 lore. The Temple of Elemental Evil and the Isle of Dread just ought to be on the same world. The division between Mystara and Greyhawk always felt so artificial to me.

Die hard fans of either setting can feel free to tar and feather me, now.

 

[caudor]

I understand your point and I could use a little more info. but the vagueness of the info is its appeal I think.

Otherwise we could just say "Anything written about the Forgotten Realms can simply be enjoyed or ignored."

So we can do this with any campaign setting using your theory. But I think the appeal of the Nentir Veil is the same appeal Greyhawk used to have...easily adapted because of the blanks and lack of details.

If they put out a whole lot of info on the Nentir Veil, that's more ignoring I have to do, and in my opinion, would make the Vale just the latest in a line of over produced settings*.

(*your mileage may vary)

A very thoughtful response. Thanks!
Now that I think about it, the vagueness does seem to be part of the appeal to me. I need to ponder, but I think this thread is changing my opinion.

Thanks again

 

[Shikami]

As do I. I have enjoyed having the feeling as a DM, adding a little extra here in there, well within boundaries of the Vale. I made Vendar (Rules Compendium pg 39) the creator of the Curthauri (Dragon 391 pg 38). Giving him sort of a Turin feel and having 13 stationed Curthauri within the empire that were the renowned Ghost Blades throughout the centuries. When one passes or dies another is sought, foretold, etc.

The Empire of Bael Turath was about to fully succeed in destroying the Arkhosia Empire, but the Nerathi Empire was able to almost completely wipe them out due to the rituals they used to attack Arkhosia being punitive. Who was left of Bael, the King of Nerath felt carried the greatest punishment due to the pact with devils had marked them. The Teiflings were a great bane and to be treated as such. The Dragonborn were considered honorable,noble, and respected as some of the greatest in the battles that happened. However, both empires were lost and these races dwindled allowing Nerath to grow. Old wall tapestries show of this great strife and momentous battles from centuries ago. Forgot what Dragon periodical contained some of this information but here is a web page containing some of the same material I read and glued together: Rise of the Empires | Empire of Arkhosia | Obsidian Portal

The later years of when the Nerathi Empire was falling apart is when the Bloodspear War took place....I can go on and on. I have not read the books concerning this world, and I would like to have a little consistency rather than my imagination. Because I truly dislike not having any continuity-especially if it is at my hand. Oh to note, I do like its vagueness too. But sometimes I like having some templates to extend my creation/imagination. As you said thought...not too much.

Anyways, not sure if I recall anyone mentioning this in the forum thread yet. But I do recall a web page article-cannot find at the moment-noting that the new DM screen will contain a Nentir Vale gazetteer.

 

[Scribble]

A very thoughtful response. Thanks!
Now that I think about it, the vagueness does seem to be part of the appeal to me. I need to ponder, but I think this thread is changing my opinion.

Thanks again

Welcome aboard... Please enjoy the complimentary spork.


For me I think it's the very fact that there is a HINT of a complete story starts my mind filling in the gaps...

White Wolf is/was kind of the master of this in my opinion... Enough story to get me interested in an idea, but with enough holes that my mind works like crazy filling in the blanks with whatever I think would be coolest.

The Nentir Vale (and kind of all the core world stuff for 4e) is doing that for me. They could use a bit more flavor most of the time, but the style is getting into that missing pieces style I love so much.

So I say to the WoTC flavor team... KEEP IT UP!



I think it's kind of like the difference between a book and a movie... The monster in a book will always be scarier, I think, because it's whatever you imagine is the scariest. Once it's filmed, it's someone else's vision, and it becomes kind of impossible to replace it with your own- even if you try really hard.

 

[DEFCON 1]

Exactly. I myself appreciate the ideas and concepts that describe certain areas of the Vale, but don't go into such specifics that you feel like you are following a metaplot of WotC's devising with little to no chance of affecting it (which players of 7th Sea and Legend of the 5 Rings I'm sure have had to deal with on occasion). Once a location is spec'd out in a product... we can be fairly confident that it isn't going to then be spec'd out a second time in another year or two with additional story points that will have massive effects on that location and all the others. I.E. there won't be a Spellplague and 100 year jump.

So to know that Hammerfast used to be a necropolis and it has ghosts walking the streets and everything else associated with the Hammerfast product, just gives me a big sandbox with a bunch of interesting details I wouldn't have come up with on my own (and I know that had I just had my party go to Hammerfast prior to the product release, the town wouldn't have been nearly as interesting with not nearly as cool NPCs and minor plots to incorporate.)

Thunderspire Labyrinth being a former minotaur complex and a directe connection to the Underdark gives me another big sandbox with which to fill out. Winterhaven and Fallcrest and Harkenwold and Mistwatch all have their own interesting stories from details that have been released in the various products. Fiveleague House, Gardmore Abbey, the Temple of Yellow Skulls... all places that are but dots on a map, but which have (or soon will have) concepts placed behind them that will make them more different than if I had to think up everything on my own.

I know I'm not so creative that had I been given the five towns of Fallcrest, Winterhaven, Harken, Hammerfast and Mistwatch and been told "now fill these towns out!" that I would have come up with anything so detailed or interesting. Thus being able to rely on the writers and designers of Wizards to give me blueprints and specs with which to delve further into, is a boon to my game and the Nentir Vale itself.

 

[DMZ2112]

Exactly. I myself appreciate the ideas and concepts that describe certain areas of the Vale, but don't go into such specifics that you feel like you are following a metaplot of WotC's devising with little to no chance of affecting it (which players of 7th Sea and Legend of the 5 Rings I'm sure have had to deal with on occasion).

This. I’d also add Forgotten Realms to the list; I always found the copious lore associated with that place to be daunting.

Playing D&D is like writing fanfiction.

…Bear with me, this is relevant.

The reason why some fandoms have large creative communities and some don’t is that not all fandoms are conducive to filler stories – any setting can spark the imagination, but one has to have a certain empty-space-to-content ratio in order to spark creativity.

D&D works the same way. Setting supplements should give us a map of the major settlement in the area described, and a less-detailed overall map. The map of the town should be detailed enough that the DM doesn’t have to guess at how one gets from the keep to the docks, or where the market is, or whether there’s another inn after the characters get thrown through the window of their first one. Similarly, the area map ought to show roads, rivers, forests, and the spatial relationship between important landmarks.

The Thieves’ Guild might be behind a rusty steel door at the end of a dark alley in the Wharfs District, or the party may set up camp beside a crystal-clear waterfall and pool that has collected in some mossy ancient ruins, but the DM is already going to go out of his way to describe these details. The setting materials don’t have to. What we need to know is how far it is from here to there, whether our feet are going to get wet along the way, and how there and here tie into the larger themes of the setting itself.

Metaplot is the glue that holds a setting together, but we also need to feel like we can ignore it without consequence when necessary. The Thieves' Guild might be acting in secret against the great wyrm dragon plotting to enslave the entire valley, but that doesn't matter when you're trying to fence a brooch. The ruins are undoubtedly from an ancient civilization that is relevant to the destiny of the world as a whole, but it's okay for them to just look pretty for one night.

It’s the gaps between the landmarks that draw us in, with the help of the DM. That’s why the ‘points of light’ concept had so much promise, but it’s not just the wilderness between the towns and cities that is untracked, it’s also the wilderness between the dungeons. Where are the Caves of Chaos? Somewhere in the Borderlands, presumably. Where is White Plume Mountain? In the Great Swamp, south of the hut of Thingizzard (beware her potions!), southeast of the lair of Dragotha, and north of ‘Town.’

Mayor Mayorsson of Town must be a pretty nervous individual.