I want my actions to matter

[Micah Sweet]

They’re both examples of transparent play.

Which… to bring this back to the point… allows players to know that their actions and choices matter.

Sounds like it works for you. Other things work for other people.

 

[bloodtide]

Why does it either need to be 100% controlled by the players or the DM?

Well, how does that work? Someone has to be in charge...and it has to be the DM....unless your not playing a traditional RPG.

And you still have not answered my question.

So you gave the example of a normal game...rolling long. And you said the players would random do something like buy and inn or adopt a baby. Then when the DM ignores it and just keeps the "main" game rolling......you said this was wrong.

So....why is not what the player(s) is doing wrong? Are not the players wrong for taking the game off on a tangent? Why is it ok for the players to just randomly say "Ok, we want to ignore the adventure and do some random thing"? Why is the DM the bad guy for ignoring this?

Sure...you can just let the players run wild and do whatever. And sure you can just "add" whatever random things they do to the "main" Story Plot. Like...ok....so the players randomly buy an Inn. So then the DM just randomly says ....oh look your inn just happened to be built on an old cursed dwarven burial ground with a portal to the Plane of Unlife. And you'd be fine with that.

I said experienced climbers because inexperienced ones would not think of tackling a cliff

Oh well...sure the inexperienced folks won't think at all. But they are still going to climb. Or try to climb. And they are the ones falling off....

They’re both examples of transparent play.

Which… to bring this back to the point… allows players to know that their actions and choices matter.

Humm.....could be my problem as my game is a hidden riddle inside and enigma in fog and pure darkness beyond all darkness leaving the poor players blind and clueless. I'm sure it's a huge shock as all thier other games are with Buddy DMs that are as transparent as transparent can be.

 

[hawkeyefan]

The first go-round was a few sessions while they set everything up, after which it came up sporadically: every time they were in town between adventures for the next three or so real-world years we'd spend anywhere between half a session and a couple of sessions sorting out and updating that bloody company. That it did stupendously well* didn't help me any; as for a while their income from the company rivalled that from adventuring.

* - both the players' dice and mine were consistently very, very clear on this point, and I had to honour that.

So a few sessions up front and then significant amount over the next three years spent on something that wasn’t quite what they wanted and wasn’t what you wanted?

Wow.

 

[hawkeyefan]

Humm.....could be my problem as my game is a hidden riddle inside and enigma in fog and pure darkness beyond all darkness leaving the poor players blind and clueless. I'm sure it's a huge shock as all thier other games are with Buddy DMs that are as transparent as transparent can be.

You’re so cool.

 

[Lanefan]

Well, how does that work? Someone has to be in charge...and it has to be the DM....unless your not playing a traditional RPG.

And you still have not answered my question.

So you gave the example of a normal game...rolling long. And you said the players would random do something like buy and inn or adopt a baby. Then when the DM ignores it and just keeps the "main" game rolling......you said this was wrong.

So....why is not what the player(s) is doing wrong? Are not the players wrong for taking the game off on a tangent?

IMO if going off on that tangent is what the characters would do then by definition it cannot be wrong.

Why is it ok for the players to just randomly say "Ok, we want to ignore the adventure and do some random thing"? Why is the DM the bad guy for ignoring this?

Because part of the DM's job is to hit the curveballs the players throw.

Sure...you can just let the players run wild and do whatever. And sure you can just "add" whatever random things they do to the "main" Story Plot. Like...ok....so the players randomly buy an Inn. So then the DM just randomly says ....oh look your inn just happened to be built on an old cursed dwarven burial ground with a portal to the Plane of Unlife. And you'd be fine with that.

Not really. Contrivance can be useful sometimes, but this is too much for my liking.

That said, if the inn is old enough to have any history then who knows what interesting things might be found if-when some walls are taken out during renovations; also who knows what things may have happened there in the past and-or be about to happen there in the future.....

Hey, now I think about it, that family did seem in rather a hurry to sell us this place.....

 

[Lanefan]

So a few sessions up front and then significant amount over the next three years spent on something that wasn’t quite what they wanted and wasn’t what you wanted?

Wow.

As DM I'm duty bound to follow where the characters lead - in this case it was into a boardroom - as it's just another curveball I have to hit. I didn't expect it to go on nearly as long as it did, though.

 

[Irlo]

Characterizing players pursuing PCs goals not directly related to the DM's intended plot as "randomly deciding to do random things on random whims" is IMO contrary to what makes D&D an enduring, rewarding pasttime.

 

[pointofyou]

Humm.....could be my problem as my game is a hidden riddle inside and enigma in fog and pure darkness beyond all darkness leaving the poor players blind and clueless. I'm sure it's a huge shock as all thier other games are with Buddy DMs that are as transparent as transparent can be.

No. That is not even a little bit of your problem.

 

[BookTenTiger]

@bloodtide I'm just going to say that as a DM I would be delighted if the characters in my campaign bought an inn, adopted a baby, wanted to rob a bank... Because it would mean that they were engaged in the campaign world.

I see my role as a DM not as the one providing a story, but as facilitating a story. Ideally, the characters and players are the drivers of the story. They are choosing what they are interested in and making meaningful choices. I then place interesting obstacles in the way of their goals and let them come up with creative solutions.

In my last campaign, the characters were supposed to take down the big bad vampire queen. They did so, but along the way they also started multiple temples, pursued rumors of hidden treasures, started a revolution, made alliances with villains rather than fighting them, and overall had a lot of fun engaging in the campaign world.

You can see these actions as the players being "random," or you can see them as the players enjoying the sandbox element of D&D that has always drawn players to the game, that promise that you can try and do anything in your imagination.

I'll give you a really concrete example:

As a DM, I think a neat story element would be a big dragon coming in from the coast and razing villages. I have an adventure hook where a character's cousin arrives at the inn they're staying at, bloodied and burnt, warning them about this dragon having destroyed their hometown.

In my mind, I imagine the characters will probably ride off to save the day.

But let's say they do something "random" instead. Like one of the players suggests they buy an inn.

As a DM I'm not going to say "that's dumb" or just sit back and twiddle my thumbs until it's my turn again. I'm going to engage in the game.

Do the characters have enough money? If not, I can drop hints of treasures to be found. Maybe that coastal dragon is sitting on a fat hoard?

Once they have an inn, I'll have refugees from the coast coming to stay there. Maybe a traveling wizard knows of scrolls that could be helpful in fighting the dragon.

And then at some point I'm going to just ask the players, "Are you guys planning on solving this dragon problem?"

Maybe they'll say yes, or maybe they'll say they're not interested. What are they interested in? Maybe telling a story about a group of adventurers running an inn.

So then I'd move forward a year, say the dragon has taken over the coast and this has caused some craziness in the hospitality business. In fact, they're starting to get some real troublemakers staying at their inn. Secretly, it turns out a rival in is sending thugs to the adventurers' inn!

What will they do?

And now we have some great new adventures to play.

 

[tetrasodium]

IMO if going off on that tangent is what the characters would do then by definition it cannot be wrong.

Because part of the DM's job is to hit the curveballs the players throw.

Not really. Contrivance can be useful sometimes, but this is too much for my liking.

That said, if the inn is old enough to have any history then who knows what interesting things might be found if-when some walls are taken out during renovations; also who knows what things may have happened there in the past and-or be about to happen there in the future.....

Hey, now I think about it, that family did seem in rather a hurry to sell us this place.....

No I don't think that it's that simple of an answer to the subverter problem noted in that comment,a mere curve ball is something else. @bloodtide raises a reasonable point that has really grown with 5e. There is a great blog post on the Alexandrian titled abused gamer syndrome & dndshorts has a great video about toxic player types that includes one dubbed "the subverter". The way 5e insulates PCs from any form of need very much empowers that type of player by freeing them from the risk of any other player pushing back when they say "let's find something else to do" in an effort to avoid or bail on the planned/ongoing adventure.