I want my Psionic browser too! (Or how the hell would you know?)

[ProfessorCirno]

Think 4e marketing insulted you?

Well, they'll believe you, but first you have to give full cited instances of things that offended you. Word for word. Links to where they appear on the internet, or page/paragraph points on what book.

Ok, they won't. But they'll believe you if you can tell them why it offended you in spite of how they'll be pointing out how uninsulting it was to them, and how you so obviously twisted their words around.

Ok, they won't. But they'll believe you if you can prove that, despite their ironclad opinion being fact, and despite them showing you exactly what the developer really meant, other people were also insulted, because If It's Just You, It Doesn't Count.

Ok, they won't. Because clearly you walked in expecting to be insulted because you're just another one of those 4e haters and that's what you 4e haters do, you attack WotC irrationally.




Yeah, that got a bit tiresome rather quickly.



Look. If something offends me, I don't need to tell you why. It doesn't matter to you how or why 4e marketing offended people. It really has quite literally nothing to do with you. And besides, that, WotC is a big boy. It can handle disgruntled nerds like me and others on the internet being disgusted or displeased with how they do things. Being told "Your opinion doesn't matter because you're just irrational" is insulting. Highly insulting.


*This isn't directed at the OP, but rather the people the OP is talking about.

 

[ProfessorCirno]

It is not unreasonable to ascribe motives to others. Its unreasonable not to. Its just against forum rules because this forum privileges the trappings of civility over actual civil conversation.

Hah hah, oh yes. The forum rules against insulting people and putting words in their mouth STOPS CIVIL CONVERSATION. THE MAN IS KEEPING YOU DOWN.

Guys, we can't have actual conversations because we aren't allowed to aimlessly attack and flame one another. The horror!

 

[jdrakeh]

Hah hah, oh yes. The forum rules against insulting people and putting words in their mouth STOPS CIVIL CONVERSATION. THE MAN IS KEEPING YOU DOWN.

Guys, we can't have actual conversations because we aren't allowed to aimlessly attack and flame one another. The horror!

That's the only way that some people know how to communicate online.

 

[fanboy2000]

I'm sure mechanics-bashing went on in the early days of 3e as well but I don't recall them dominating the discussion the way they seem to do so today. Of course I'm an aging grognard so perhaps my memory's not what it used to be.

I don't think I imagined it, though. Back in those days, ENWORLD was not my main RPG website of choice. ENWORLD became that site due to the ability to exchange ideas. Mechanics discussions, by-and-large, that I read at the time showcased the flexibility of 3e/OGL.

I don't think your mis-remembering, and I don't think you imagined it. I'm just innately skeptical of any statement similar to "it was better back then."

Part of this is because I always seem to be on the "new" side of any debate.
Emacs v. vi? Emacs.
Kyle Rayner v. Hal Jorden? Rayner.
2e v. 3e? 3e
3e v. 3.5? 3.5
3.5 v. 4e? 4e

When a popular band does a cover of a old song, I'm the guy who likes the new version.

Really, if you want to blame someone for WotC's marketing of 4e, blame me. I am the lowest common denominator. WotC's marketing didn't offend me. When I saw that youtube video where the guy brings the game session to a halt because he wants to grapple a monster, I was like "Hey! That's happened to me!"

You know the name fanboy? It's because I was a 3e fanboy then a 3.5 fanboy. Now I'm a 4e fanboy. Seriously, it's like WotC has a camera on my game and can read my mind.

I'm so very sorry.

 

[Azgulor]

It is not unreasonable to ascribe motives to others. Its unreasonable not to. Its just against forum rules because this forum privileges the trappings of civility over actual civil conversation.

Clearly, then one of us has fallen into the other's universe which is the mirror of the other. 'Cause in my world - close friends and family excluded perhaps - while I can intuit, suspect, & theorize someone's motivations, verbally assigning a person such motivations is usually the express ramp to ending the civil conversation.

 

[Fifth Element]

Look. If something offends me, I don't need to tell you why. It doesn't matter to you how or why 4e marketing offended people. It really has quite literally nothing to do with you.

I agree, from one perspective. From another, when you post about your being offended on a discussion board, you must know you will be asked to explain it. If you don't want to discuss what you post, don't post it. It's a discussion board, not a bitching board. That's what blogs are for.

 

[Azgulor]

Think 4e marketing insulted you?

Well, they'll believe you, but first you have to give full cited instances of things that offended you. Word for word. Links to where they appear on the internet, or page/paragraph points on what book.

Ok, they won't. But they'll believe you if you can tell them why it offended you in spite of how they'll be pointing out how uninsulting it was to them, and how you so obviously twisted their words around.

Ok, they won't. But they'll believe you if you can prove that, despite their ironclad opinion being fact, and despite them showing you exactly what the developer really meant, other people were also insulted, because If It's Just You, It Doesn't Count.

Ok, they won't. Because clearly you walked in expecting to be insulted because you're just another one of those 4e haters and that's what you 4e haters do, you attack WotC irrationally.

Excellent summation!

 

[Cadfan]

Clearly, then one of us has fallen into the other's universe which is the mirror of the other. 'Cause in my world - close friends and family excluded perhaps - while I can intuit, suspect, & theorize someone's motivations, verbally assigning a person such motivations is usually the express ramp to ending the civil conversation.

Your mistake is believing that the conversation was ever civil in the first place. A conversation where one person lies to annoy the other is not a civil conversation, no matter how nicey nice the words utilized may be.

That's the biggest, most fundamental flaw in ENWorld's moderation. Take a conversation where one person rails about 4e's wahoo elder dragon minion slaughtering style. Other people respond to argue that 4e hasn't got a wahoo elder dragon minion slaughtering style. ENWorld's official position is that this conversation can be civil as long as everyone's polite. The failure, of course, is that this conversation is not and never was civil because the complainer obviously knows that 4e hasn't got elder dragon minions. He's lying to make people angry. Calling him out doesn't end the civil conversation, it just plain ends the conversation. There was never any civility.

 

[Piratecat]

Whoa, nellie! Deep breaths everyone.

Azgulor, that's a good post. I disagree with subjective opinion #4 (3e has always had a ton of mechanics posts), but otherwise I think you're generally right on the money. Rant posts seldom do more than piss people off, but you did a good job of laying out some objective and subjective issues.

Cadfan, I think you're mistaken about a few things. Let's say that someone posts about 4e's wahoo elder dragon minions. One of three things is the case:

1. They really don't know that they're wrong, they're sincere, and they're using a bad example to make a point.

2. They're being jerks on purpose.

3. They're actually right and you disagree with them.

In all of these cases you can still argue that they're wrong (or right, if you prefer); just don't be a jerk about it, and report the post if you think there's a problem. Don't get angry. If they are trolling, you losing your cool means they've won anyways. But if you think it's #2 and it's really #1 or #3, you've just made things worse.

We're shooting for greater visibility in calling out problems, so we flag problematic posts in the posts themselves. That may help explain our expectations.

 

[Jack99]

Think 4e marketing insulted you?

Well, they'll believe you, but first you have to give full cited instances of things that offended you. Word for word. Links to where they appear on the internet, or page/paragraph points on what book.

Ok, they won't. But they'll believe you if you can tell them why it offended you in spite of how they'll be pointing out how uninsulting it was to them, and how you so obviously twisted their words around.

Ok, they won't. But they'll believe you if you can prove that, despite their ironclad opinion being fact, and despite them showing you exactly what the developer really meant, other people were also insulted, because If It's Just You, It Doesn't Count.

Ok, they won't. Because clearly you walked in expecting to be insulted because you're just another one of those 4e haters and that's what you 4e haters do, you attack WotC irrationally.




Yeah, that got a bit tiresome rather quickly.



Look. If something offends me, I don't need to tell you why. It doesn't matter to you how or why 4e marketing offended people. It really has quite literally nothing to do with you. And besides, that, WotC is a big boy. It can handle disgruntled nerds like me and others on the internet being disgusted or displeased with how they do things. Being told "Your opinion doesn't matter because you're just irrational" is insulting. Highly insulting.


*This isn't directed at the OP, but rather the people the OP is talking about.

The main reason why you get called out on your statements is not that you have another opinion. Its because some people perceive your statement as untrue, or at least do not recognize your version of things.

There is a huge difference between saying: "I do not like 4e marketing" and saying "4e's marketing was offensive because they lied and said 4e was not being made".

I agree, from one perspective. From another, when you post about your being offended on a discussion board, you must know you will be asked to explain it. If you don't want to discuss what you post, don't post it. It's a discussion board, not a bitching board. That's what blogs are for.

And this.