no one person explains them because they are that easy, and they are for a quick entertainment so why would everyone read them when it's not necessary?
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I want smaller, leaner core books.
- Thread starter Reynard
- Start date
Four out of six people in my game group regard RPG rules the same way - an unfortunate task they would rather avoid. And their bloated format makes the task even more unpleasant for me, the rules explainer, than holding their hands through learning a boardgame.
Mistwell
Crusty Old Meatwad (he/him)
LOL did you just tell me you know why one person IN MY OWN GROUP does something better than I know why the one person WHO I KNOW DIRECTLY does it?
WTF? Nevin, you want to re-think your approach maybe on this one?
No Nevin, the reason this one person is the one who reads the board game rules is because he's the one who is the most skilled at parsing board game rules, explaining them in common language our group understands (like "It's similar to that time Jason did this with that other game") and also the one least repulsed by the task. No really, that's the reasons. It's not open for debate. It's not subjective. I can ask him and he will answer those are the reasons, and all of us in the group agree those are the reasons.
Some board game rules are easy, and some are a lot more complicated. I don't think anyone would look at Gloomhaven rules for instance and say "Oh yeah, this is easy and ideal for quick entertainment" for example.
While I agree with your overall point, Gloomhaven is actually a bettwer argument for lean RPG rules since Gloomhaven is much closer to what we consider an RPG than what most people think when they think "board game." Really the only difference is the lack of a GM to interpret any results and control bad guys.
Bravesteel25
Baronet of Gaming
IMHO, I think GURPS 4th Edition Basic Set (two books) does a great job at presenting the rules in a easily digestible way, while also hitting the thematic marks in places that help spark the imagination. I may be alone in that as I am a hard Science Fiction gamer these days, but that's been my experience.
Mistwell
Crusty Old Meatwad (he/him)
Gloomhaven's rules were so burdensome that they felt the need to make a slimed down version of those rules with Jaws of the Lion, and walk people through the rules by spoonfeeding one new one per demo adventure until they could ramp up to the full rules.
And then you move on to the full rules.
And to do that they...added a huge amount of descriptive fluff to Jaws of the Lion, just like D&D did.
Which, when combined with the intro rules, gives you a big book of stuff.
So yes. It's a good example. It proves the WOTC model in my opinion. The dry text version spooked too many people off the main game, so they had to turn to a more descriptive version as an intro. I am betting if they could have done it all over again they would have made the main rules more descriptive as well, but they learned that lesson only after the release of them.
Argyle King
Legend
SJ Games was able to distill GURPS 4th Edition into a 32-Page Book of "GURPS Lite."
Would that be a good example?
+1
Overall -despite the reputation of being complicated, I find that SJ Games does an excellent job of providing clear writing to explain things. (This is likely a product of their high editorial standards.) I've mentioned in past discussions that I sometimes find GURPS less complicated than D&D.
GURPS Lite is a 32-page version of the rules.
In the past few years, a few other products have been offered as easier entries into the system.
Discworld is a complete game. While it is still 400ish pages, most of that is setting fluff.
Would that be a good example?
+1
Overall -despite the reputation of being complicated, I find that SJ Games does an excellent job of providing clear writing to explain things. (This is likely a product of their high editorial standards.) I've mentioned in past discussions that I sometimes find GURPS less complicated than D&D.
GURPS Lite is a 32-page version of the rules.
In the past few years, a few other products have been offered as easier entries into the system.
Discworld is a complete game. While it is still 400ish pages, most of that is setting fluff.
Well thank you for telling me what I can debate and what is subjective from point of view. Could you let me know what to make for dinner while your at it?
Interesting. We never had any problems understanding the Gloomhaven rules at all. It turned out the game wasn't especially fun -- or, fun enough for the time investment -- but not complicated or hard to grok.
Filling your rulebook with a bunch of empty prose is not helpful. If you wanted to keep D&D the same word count you could still write it a much clearer and utilitarian format that made it a more useful table resource. As it is, RPG books by and large obfuscate the important rule bits in order to make them "readable."
Just to be clear, I am not saying that RPGs should have fluff or be easy to read. I am saying that the CORE RULES of an RPG should dispense with empty prose.
Mistwell
Crusty Old Meatwad (he/him)
Nevin, I made a statement about my own friend. You corrected me as if I didn't know why he was doing something but you did. You were not commenting on some general topic open to debate, there is in fact a specific objective answer, and you had no means of knowing the answer because YOU DON'T KNOW MY FRIEND OR MY GROUP. So yeah, I can tell you what is up for debate when it comes to a topic you cannot possibly know the answer to and which is personal to me. Unless you are claiming to be a psychic? Is that what you're claiming Nevin? Or maybe you're claiming you do know my friend? Which is it?
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