I Want the Old Realms Back

[Talok]

With 5th Edition on the horizon, WotC needs to ask themselves some serious questions. Including how they will handle the Forgotten Realms.

The Realms are one of the things that have kept me playing D&D instead of Basic Fantasy or Pathfinder, but 4th Edition screwed them up to the point of barley being better than the core world. This makes me mad.

They really had no reason to introduce the Spellplegue other than to justify the 4e system, which really isn't a good reason. They have killed off interesting characters, removed deities for no reason, castrated the cosmology, and squeezed the last bit of interesting-ness of the characters they decided to keep alive. The only thing I like better about the 4e realms to the extra fluff they gave to Menzoberranzan, which to me is the best part of the setting.

I think it would be best if they went back to the pre-Spellplegue Realms. They could fix some mistakes they made and perhaps shift emphasis on some things, but the core concept would be very close to what they had in 3e. This would make the GOOD content relevant again, and reverse most of the damage they did to the beloved setting.

I feel the same way. Unfortunately, WotC owns the rights to realms and can do what they want with them for good or ill, mostly for ill.

 

[Talok]

No offence but you sound like you haven't been a fan of the Realms for very long given it's tawdry history in publication. It has been changed significantly for every edition. So if you don't like what was done to it in 4e, just go use the 3e books.

Personally, I love 4e Forgotten Realms. I think it kicks all sorts of ass over the 3e version. To me, the 2e and 3e versions of the Realms were boring. I liked the 1e version 'cause it was very Greyhawkey in the sense that it had some really great locations that were nicely fleshed out, and had lots of threads that could be pulled for a lot of other areas that weren't fleshed out. Then 2e/3e fleshed them all out and made it all kinda meh. Then 4e destroyed it all and turned the Realms into this massive sandbox of awesome.

The spellplague changed the realms to a much greater magnitude than any of the previous realms shaking events. The time of troubles and return of netheril produced miniscule changes compared to the spellplague.

 

[Zaran]

Didn't they kill off Mystara off-camara? I thought it was more like 4e came out, then Bam! Here is a Drizzt book 100 years later?

It would have been awesome if they had did an adventure path that revolved around the Spellplague. That way players would have had the oppurtunity to be a part of the change and see the world getting nerked up in real-time.

 

[Talok]

No offence but you sound like you haven't been a fan of the Realms for very long given it's tawdry history in publication. It has been changed significantly for every edition. So if you don't like what was done to it in 4e, just go use the 3e books.

Personally, I love 4e Forgotten Realms. I think it kicks all sorts of ass over the 3e version. To me, the 2e and 3e versions of the Realms were boring. I liked the 1e version 'cause it was very Greyhawkey in the sense that it had some really great locations that were nicely fleshed out, and had lots of threads that could be pulled for a lot of other areas that weren't fleshed out. Then 2e/3e fleshed them all out and made it all kinda meh. Then 4e destroyed it all and turned the Realms into this massive sandbox of awesome.

To many, 4E took everything that defining about the Realms away, and the whole campaign setting became a big mess of "meh".

 

[DracoSuave]

It's the Realms. If you don't like campaign settings that go through complete revamps every time a new edition comes out... then I'll be blunt: The Realms are NOT for you.

This is the third time they've done that. There've been three edition changes. Stuff goes away, stuff comes back. It's just how the Realms are. I mean... Spellplague has nothing on the Time of Troubles.

 

[Zaran]

It's the Realms. If you don't like campaign settings that go through complete revamps every time a new edition comes out... then I'll be blunt: The Realms are NOT for you.

This is the third time they've done that. There've been three edition changes. Stuff goes away, stuff comes back. It's just how the Realms are. I mean... Spellplague has nothing on the Time of Troubles.

I don't know. The Time of Troubles didn't have a big ugly black hole in the map and at least we actually got a bunch of area sourcebooks . Also, they based a whole series around the Time of Troubles. Spellplague was just a handwave and time advancement and look! Dragon people with mammalian features!

 

[DracoSuave]

I don't know. The Time of Troubles didn't have a big ugly black hole in the map and at least we actually got a bunch of area sourcebooks . Also, they based a whole series around the Time of Troubles. Spellplague was just a handwave and time advancement and look! Dragon people with mammalian features!

On the other hand, you had all assassins dying just so that it can be explained why there was no assassin class in second edition any more. If THAT'S not an ass pull handwave, nothing is.

And how well did that Bane dying for the campaign thing work out? People got so roughed up over that they decided to bring him back, because no one liked Cyric.

The only two good characters to come out of the Time of Troubles were Kelemvor, and Adon. And Kelemvor only became cool when he berated Midnight for abusing her powers for good, and when his existance gave the laugh to Cyric.

Cause no one liked Cyric. And no one liked Midnight. Now Midnight is dead. Good. Riddance.

 

[Kzach]

To many, 4E took everything that defining about the Realms away, and the whole campaign setting became a big mess of "meh".

And which "Realms" would that be? The 1e Realms? 'cause that was wholly different from the 2e Realms. Or would it be the 2e Realms, which was wholly different from the 3e Realms. Or was it the 3e Realms, which again was wholly different from the 4e Realms?

These arguments are so disingenuous because they infer that there was some sort of zeitgeist of Realmsian lore and philosophy that spanned all editions UNTIL 4e, which ruined it all, when in fact, every edition had was it's OWN zeitgeist. So whoever makes such statements either knows this and chooses to ignore it for the benefit of their argument, or is ignorant of Realms history throughout the editions, either one of which makes their entire argument fall on its face.

Like or hate each edition's version of FR all you want but don't make the claim that all previous editions of FR were some happy melting pot of system and lore gooeyness until 4e peed on it all when the fact is, every edition's version has peed on the previous edition's version.

The Time of Troubles didn't have a big ugly black hole in the map and at least we actually got a bunch of area sourcebooks.

What was Anauroch for $500!

 

[delericho]

And which "Realms" would that be? The 1e Realms? 'cause that was wholly different from the 2e Realms. Or would it be the 2e Realms, which was wholly different from the 3e Realms. Or was it the 3e Realms, which again was wholly different from the 4e Realms?

I certainly agree that the 1st -> 2nd "Time of Troubles" was a major shift (and sucked, IMO), and that the 3e -> 4e "Spellplague" is a major shift (and sucked, IMO), but I wasn't aware of anything of close to the same scale in the 2nd -> 3e shift. I know the map got adjusted slightly, and I know a few NPCs had their stats reassigned (notably the Simbul becoming a Sorcerer), but there's certainly no in-setting apocalypse this time out. Or did I miss something?

 

[DEFCON 1]

I don't know. The Time of Troubles didn't have a big ugly black hole in the map and at least we actually got a bunch of area sourcebooks.

Well, based upon how many people complained about the new Realms... I'm not at all surprised they decided not to do any area sourcebooks. Talk about about throwing away good money after bad.

I mean really... how many of you out there who hated the 4E FR campaign guide do you think would suddenly "come around" to it if there were area sourcebooks on certain parts of it?

(And if any of you say "I might have!", well now you're getting your wish. Pick up the Neverwinter Campaign Setting and see if it grabs you.)