D&D 5E I wish for more wishes.

[Stormonu]

@Rune I wonder how a Wish, something granted by some cosmic entity (such as a Demon, Devil, God, or other such entity) could grant something that is totally unknown by any being except one, which would refuse to give it up regardless.

Perhaps, in Vecna's true name case, the spell seeks out the only individual with this knowledge (in this case, Vecna) or an individual who Vecna owns a divine favor to and as part of a pact, requires the info to be revealed (Lest not revealing the info has some detriment to Vecna)? (But also, Vecna probably now knows who asked for the name...)

Finally, True Names tend to change as an individual undertakes certain activites, their renkown grows or they gain appelations and whatnot - a truename is essentially the summation of all a being is; whoever learns his true name only has a short time to act on it before it changes once Vecna undertakes a new plot...

Pelor: "Hey, Vecna - remember that weed wacker hand attachment I lent you last week and I said you could repay me back later? Well, there's this geezer on Greyhawk who wants to know your true name..."

Vecna:"What? No way!"

Pelor:"Okay, well next time maybe you can talk Nerull into letting you borrow his scythe to mow your lawn andyou can try swinging it one handed."

Vecna:"No, wait, dammit... okay, okay. Say, what was that guy's name anyway?"

 

[Sekhmet]

@Stormonu While a hilarious image, Pelor and Vecna being buddy-buddy, I find it innately flawed. As the God of Secrets, Vecna wouldn't be willing to give that information to any being. The only being that could grant his true name would be Vecna himself, and he would be entirely unwilling.

Your second paragraph regarding true names is only half of the description of a true name. The names do not change form or appearance, just the enunciation becomes more and more complex. A mortal man - wretched and unwanted in caste, trained in magic by his witch mother (who was burned at the stake), further taught by the personification of magic on Oerth, Mok'slyk the Serpent, who becomes a lich in order to master his revenge for the death of his mother, ruler of a great emprie, resisted death by a divine power channeled through clerics of Pholtus (the God of Holy Light, unable to slay a lich!), slain by his lieutenant, the vampire Kas, by a sword crafted by Vecna himself, only to arise from death as a demigod and fight for Godhood through the Lady of Blades, who achieved Lesser Godhood for his hubris and power, would have a very complicatedly pronounced true name indeed.

 

[Rune]

Here's another thought:

What if there was only one Wish in the campaign's universe? Only one entity could ever know it at a time and, once used, it would be completely (but not necessarily permanently) unlearned. It's presence in a spellbook would not be eliminated; it simply couldn't be prepared and/or cast while another entity in the universe could use it.

Obviously, this would emphasize that the power is in knowing the spell. Just having the ability to cast the spell and prevent other casters from doing the same would cause the individual to wield tremendous influence in the universe.

 

[pming]

Hiya.

I've been using the following for the last 30+ years.

Similar to the above post, there are only 3 'known' Wish *spells*; One for Good one for Neutrality and one for Evil. Only a single Magic-User of each core G/N/E could actually cast wish. It was kind of like, I suppose, a "prestige" spell; Boccob (I primarily run my campaigns in Greyhawk, pre-wars) lets one MU of each G/N/E 'use' the spell. The MU in question is granted an audience with the God, and all MU's across the world get a vision in a dream basically saying "One has been Chosen" to use the G/N/E wish. If said MU abuses or tries to abuse the spell, Boccob removes it from their capability and seeks out someone new to replace him.

To cover the 'power scaling' of wish when players try to abuse it, this is how I handle it. If a player tries to abuse a granted wish (e.g., trying to wish for more wishes, or wish for a scroll with wishes on it, or a ring of 3 wishes, etc.), I take the following steps. First, I say "No". Then...er...wait. I guess that's it. Oddly enough, works flawlessly in play. Never had a wish be abused.

^_^

Paul L. Ming

 

[MarkB]

[MENTION=67]Rune[/MENTION] I wonder how a Wish, something granted by some cosmic entity (such as a Demon, Devil, God, or other such entity) could grant something that is totally unknown by any being except one, which would refuse to give it up regardless.

Time travel. As you cast the Wish you are instantly transported through time and space, finding yourself standing before the Lexicon of Names just as Vecna walks up to it with an eraser. He doesn't look pleased to see you.

 

[Sekhmet]

Time travel. As you cast the Wish you are instantly transported through time and space, finding yourself standing before the Lexicon of Names just as Vecna walks up to it with an eraser. He doesn't look pleased to see you.

I rescind my argument because this is awesome.

 

[Sword of Spirit]

I view frequently casting wish to do anything other than duplicate 8th level or lower spells as pushing the limits or "abusing" it. Ie, if you start doing that, the DM is encouraged to twist it and make consequences that make sense in his campaign world. The freedom of wish isn't something that should be mechanically limited any further than it already is. Wish isn't the ultimate player empowerment--it is the ultimate DM empowerment.

A player is taking a risk anytime he asks to do anything other than duplicate a lower level spell. Even if the DM gives you what you ask for *this time* there is no guarantee he won't attach consequences the next time the spell is cast. Players (and NPCs) should approach the spell with the respect they would give to a great wyrm, and about as frequently.

But I don't want hard rules for it. It takes away from the fear and wonder factors involved.

 

[Li Shenron]

I view frequently casting wish to do anything other than duplicate 8th level or lower spells as pushing the limits or "abusing" it.

I already see this use of Wish and Miracle as an abuse. It basically grants you knowledge of ALL spells except 9th level ones. Spending a slot 1 level higher is a very low price for this. You could even cast spells of other classes, and even tho the slot cost was higher, IMO this is truly offensive if you have no other cost... the possibility of abuse is limitless.

In 3ed Wish had a harsh 5000Xp cost, but I don't think 5e will have any Xp cost for spells. Anyway they have to find another limitation, because otherwise it's really bad, to the point that I guess most DMs will just ban the spell or they'll make it unusable by coming up with ridiculous twisting of the words.

I am less concerned by using Wish/Miracle for original effects than using them for duplicating spells, because original effects are easily assumed to carry a risk of getting unwanted side effects, while duplicating is pretty straightforward and a player will be less inclined to accept a DM's twisting as fair.

Honestly, I really wish (!) for the spell-duplicating option to totally disappear.

That said, clearly the spell still needs a cost, because otherwise it can currently be used during downtime to become outrageously rich by creating one 25k Gp item every single day. Of course characters at this level are probably already very rich, but still...

 

[gyor]

Oops posted in the wrong thread. Edited.