ICE and the ENnies

[Khairn]

If the ENnies were intended to be JUST a d20 awards system then why would the folks involved in the ENnies ask for entries from those companies that are not producing d20 products..

I believe the folks who run the ENnies want to include every game system. But the reality is there is an inherent bias towards D20 in how the awards are managed. I personally enjoy the ENnies, but feel that they need to clearly state what they actually are ... an award program for excellence in D20 products.

 

[Treebore]

No, what it boils down to is that if the ENnies want to be an industry awards for all RPGs in the industry, then they need to include the entire industry, not just the d20 portion of it, and that goes for how they select their judges, how they advertise, what boards they advertise on, etc. The entire process.

If that is not the case, then they need to exclude non-d20 products, and remain tied to EN World like the currently are.

However, what they cannot do is to claim to represent RPGs in the industry while remaining explicitly and intricately tied to a single system. It throws the entirety of the processes involved into a murky light (no matter how honest and honorable they are).

It is also part of the reason that ICE has decided to stop participating.

It seems to me that you are not aware of part of why I posted about the ENNIES to your board.

The ENNIEs now have their own website and their own forums. They are making a concerted effort to get all gaming communities involved.

They are trying to do exactly waht you say you want them to do.

So backing out and refusing to support their diversification and broadening of their categories and efforts to be as inclusive as possible is not helpful.

 

[Dextra]

There will always be those who can find some reason against participating, and that's fine. And though I'm tempted to just let people vent their frustrations, I feel I need to address some of the (fallacious) points brought up.

The Shackled City Issue:
Last year it was determined that a product could compete in categories based on its content, not on how it was primarily marketed. In other words, a big book wouldn't be pigeon-holed on what it was supposed to be no matter how much or how excellent other material it included. So yes, Shackled City was considered in the Campaign and Adventure categories because in the eyes of the judges, it contained both campaign setting and adventure material. The fans voted, and it won.

Whether we will allow such a thing again this year has yet to be determined. I suspect that we may limit each entry to one type of category in which it may compete, but that's not a done deal. That's up to the Board and the newly-elected crop of judges.

Judge Nominations
As for the judges, we've announced the nominations being opened up on RPGNet, The Forge, and Gaming Report thus far as well as EN World. As a matter of fact, The Forge had discussion going on the topic before EN World did! I posted it as news on RPGNet and it's the top News item at the moment. And as soon as their boards were live, I started a thread on RPGNet- not my problem if the thread got buried in all the other chatter there.

And Tim's right, I didn't go into huge detail on my release to Gaming Report. It's a press release, not a novel. And I only linked to the front page of the ENnies site. But jeepers, people, click on "This Year" or "Voting" and it had the details.

We've got the news in the pipe in a few other feeds that haven't surfaced yet. Is it my fault that other outlets haven't been as quick to jump on the news as The Forge and EN World have been?

Separation from EN World
There have been plenty of steps taken in that direction.
-Yes, EN World donates forums and voting booth coding, and the voting will take place using the EN World server, but the portal will be an ENnies one, not an "EN World" branded one, just like last year.
-The ENnies site is not hosted on EN World's servers.

But remember, so long as EN World and Gen Con pay the bills, their names get to be on everything, there's no way to escape that.

The d20 Issue
People are still harping on this? I have to say, I'm getting sooooooooo tired of that argument. Look at the results for the past few years. Considering:

1. The amount of d20 vs. other systems material published during the year
2. The amount of d20 vs. other systems material submitted

The numbers speak for themselves. There is a disproportionate representation of non-d20 system games in the nominees and winners. This is not a d20 award any more, and hasn't been for years.
There's been a push to eliminate the Best d20 category, but I've resisted it because I think we still need to remind ourselves of the beginnings of the Awards since we've moved so far away from being a d20 system award.
It's way too late to say things like "leave the ENnies a d20 system award". They stopped being that years ago.

Finally
At the end of the day, the ENnies are a fan-based RPG award for all systems. The fans spoke with their votes and in ever-increasing numbers, so I know we're on the right track. Also, we have ever-increasing participation from multitudes of systems and publishers from small to big, so I know we're on the right track.

 

[Rasyr]

It seems to me that you are not aware of part of why I posted about the ENNIES to your board.

The ENNIEs now have their own website and their own forums. They are making a concerted effort to get all gaming communities involved.

They have had their own website for a couple of years now. Haven't seen any forums on them though, and I looked over the site quite well before making my post here. I went to http://www.ennieawards.com/index.html and looked again. Still no sign of forums dedicated to the ENnies, sorry.

Last year they had a thread on rpg.net about judge selection. This year, there wasn't any (again, I looked BEFORE I posted).

I
They are trying to do exactly waht you say you want them to do.

So backing out and refusing to support their diversification and broadening of their categories and efforts to be as inclusive as possible is not helpful.

This is about more than just my not seeing any effort on the part of the ENnies to become an industry award rather than just a d20 awards with minor industry colorization.

This is also about unclear and quite frankly, arbritrary rules that allow the judges to move products into and out of categories for their own purposes, the lack of transparency of the processes (what are the judging points of each category, how is the voting done, etc..), etc...

Changing the rules between the time the judges are elected and the time that final submissions are done is not the answer either (like was mentioned to be elsewhere). There is no time for a publisher to study them or review them or do anything along those lines.

Now next year, perhaps ICE might participate again if the rules changes that are made seem equitable and fair and if the ENnies Awards are more independent as well. Also, so long as no more rule changes are intended to be performed at the last minute.

Personally, I don't think that it is equitable or fair that an oversized module can be dumped into a category that was supposedly judging the entire product just because a judge thought it had enough setting elements to be in both. If this last was the case, then what is the percentage of setting required? Cause that means that just about every module can then be reviewed under setting as well if it contained enough setting elements in it to cross that magical percentage threshold.

 

[Treebore]

OK, what she (Dextra) said. The ENNIEs are obviously trying to become a very strong and viable, as well as "independent" award. Active support and participation on the part of the various RPG companies would, I think, obviously be the best way to help carry the whole process forward.

Obviously the ENNIE Awards may never make everyone happy, but it will be even less likely for them to do so if companies refuse to participate and communicate in helping the awards become better.

So even if you, and any other companies, don't wish to submit for any awards, at the very least keep communicating so they can address all concerns and have time to think of solutions.

Plus, with good communication, I think "at the last minute" is plenty of time for us to create a good judging process for this year. After all, these decisions need to be made for those elected as judges to do their judging, irregardless.

 

[Treebore]

Here is the ENNIE's post made by Denise on RPGnet on the second of February. It was on the 4th page of the general forum.

RPGnet ENNIE's Judge thread

 

[Rasyr]

Separation from EN World
There have been plenty of steps taken in that direction.
-Yes, EN World donates forums and voting booth coding, and the voting will take place using the EN World server, but the portal will be an ENnies one, not an "EN World" branded one, just like last year.
-The ENnies site is not hosted on EN World's servers.

But remember, so long as EN World and Gen Con pay the bills, their names get to be on everything, there's no way to escape that.

The d20 Issue
People are still harping on this? I have to say, I'm getting sooooooooo tired of that argument. Look at the results for the past few years. Considering:

1. The amount of d20 vs. other systems material published during the year
2. The amount of d20 vs. other systems material submitted

The numbers speak for themselves. There is a disproportionate representation of non-d20 system games in the nominees and winners. This is not a d20 award any more, and hasn't been for years.
There's been a push to eliminate the Best d20 category, but I've resisted it because I think we still need to remind ourselves of the beginnings of the Awards since we've moved so far away from being a d20 system award.
It's way too late to say things like "leave the ENnies a d20 system award". They stopped being that years ago.

Finally
At the end of the day, the ENnies are a fan-based RPG award for all systems. The fans spoke with their votes and in ever-increasing numbers, so I know we're on the right track. Also, we have ever-increasing participation from multitudes of systems and publishers from small to big, so I know we're on the right track.

To put it bluntly, so long as the ENnies are tied to EN World, they will ALWAYS BE BIASED towards d20 games (no matter how many are submitted) because the vast majority of members are d20 players and fans first and foremost, quality of the game becomes a secondary issue. When you have such a huge dedicated pool of voters for a single system being the core voters for your awards system, it isn't surprising when products for that system win, it is only surprising when something else wins....

The bias is there, whether you choose to recognize/accept it or not. And so long as the ENnies are tied to these forums, it won't go away.

As for Shackled City - I ask again, what is the MAGIC percentage of setting to module that allows a product to be listed in both? Give me a number (it can be approximate). Put it in the rules and codify it.

By putting Shackled City into the Setting category, the ENnies committed the EXACT same sort of mistake that made the Origin Awards lose all of their credibility over the years (note: the OAs took a several years to lose their credibility, and this was the first such mistake I saw in the ENnies, but now that it has happened once, it will happen again, especially if they refuse to even recognize it as a mistake).

Those who fail to learn from the past are doomed to repeat it...

As for the d20 issue. I am not making a single comment on the volume or products published or on the number in any given category. Those things are to be expected. And they are not even a part of what I have been talking about.

However, the fact that you refuse to remove the awards extremely close ties to one of the largest d20 voting pools on the planet IS an issue. It generates an automatic bias against any non-d20 product that happens to enter. When every single judge is primarily a d20 player, it generates an automatic bias unless the judges are extremely scrupulous (luckily for the ENnies, they have been).

Unless and until the judges come from a wider pool, and the voting comes from a much more diverse pool (70% EN Worlders, 30% from other sites does not make for a diverse enough voting pool), there is no way that the ENnies can be considered anything but biased towards d20.

Finally, there is nothing wrong with being a d20 award and there is nothing wrong with being an independent award for all RPGs, however, so long as the ENnies remain so closely tied to EN World, they will also be just a d20 Award, with a slight bit of flavor from other systems.

Treebore, I fully intend to keep on communicating, but it is hard to do so when the other party refuses to listen because they think you are talking about one thing (see Dextra's points about the number of d20 products above) when you are talking about something else (i.e. I am NOT talking about products entered, I am talking about the innate bias of the majority of the voting pool because the awards remain tied to a d20 fan site).

Treebore - I have been involved in the Origins Awards before, and trust me, last minute rules NEVER work like you think they will. I won't even consider participating in a contest that is deciding the rules at the last minute. That is a non-starter for me. Once severely burned, three times shy.....

Just think about it for a minute... "The ENnies are awards for the entire RPG industry, but the voting is done solely on a d20 fan site, rather than on the Awards' own website"

Treebore - I stand corrected on the rpg.net post. I never thought to look past the third page.

 

[Treebore]

Well then explain to me/us how you feel this way when a very non-d20 product took top honors last year? Shadowrun is about d6 dice pools, d20's aren't even used. So if your fears are as substantiated as you feel they are, explain/show me why they are with Shadowrun's huge wins last year.

I felt that VII by White Wolf should have beat out some of the winners in a couple of categories last year, but I chalk that up simply to it being a fan based award. Plus I felt that way without even having bought it, just from reading posts and looking through it at the store. Obviously the ENNIEs Judges agreed with me up to a point last year, since it was nominated in several categories. Just the fans felt different.

Now you might reply that is due to ENWorld favoritism, but then again you would have to convince me about Shadowrun first.

HARP is a very good game. It has certain rules I don't like, but every system, even my favorites, get house ruled by me when I run them. After having run it for for less than 12 hours this year I think it is a very great system and I really like the feel of how magic works.

So I have to ask why HARP didn't get better reception last year, but you have to admit the competition was darn good competition. Tough decisions had to be made. Its the whole reason "Honorable Mentions" were even created last year, as well as the "Judges Special Award" category. The judges said, in many posts, and at the awards themselves, there was a lot of really good stuff available last year that they had to eliminate to get only 5 nominee's per category.

Anyways, I look forward to seeing your thoughts about Shadowrun.

 

[Crothian]

As for Shackled City - I ask again, what is the MAGIC percentage of setting to module that allows a product to be listed in both? Give me a number (it can be approximate). Put it in the rules and codify it.

There isn't one as I'm sure you've guessed by now.

 

[GwydapLlew]

Y'know, I love me some D&D. I love me some d20. I also love me some White Wolf, Shadowrun. In Nomine, GURPS, Star Wars (d6), Paranoia, Earthdawn, RIFTS, In Spectres, and other games.

Just because someone posts here does not mean that they only play (or even predominantly play) d20. Heck, diaglo can't stand d20, and he was a judge last year.

I don't see the issue. This seems like sound and fury, signifying nothing.