ICE and the ENnies

[Dextra]

Could you clarify what you mean by industry credits? As far as I remember none of the judges have ever worked in the industry. Or is this an issue going back to the 2001 and 2002 ENNIE's?

It's no secret that ages ago Teflon Billy wrote some product, Joe Kushner has freelanced on occasion, and PirateCat wrote an early d20 module (PS, PKitty, where's the sequel?!). And I guess some could claim that anyone who acts as a reviewer and receives free product has an industry connection.

I've worked hard to ensure that one basic concept is followed when it comes to judge eligibility:

These are fan awards.

Professionals, freelancers, publishers, etc. can not be judges.
This also helps maintain impartiality and fairness.

But what it comes down to is, if the fans selecting the judges think that someone with long past writing credits is whom they wish representing them on the panel, then we should respect their wishes.

 

[Menexenus]

For what it is worth (i.e., not much), I say keep the Ennies d20-centric. I agree with those who have suggested that expanding the awards to cover all gaming systems dilutes their relevance and unintentionally promotes "platform" popularity contests.

I think the Ennies' expansion to include non-d20 categories is an unfortunate by-product of linking the awards to GenCon (which seemed cool at first, but which was probably a mistake).

ENWorld was designed as a clearinghouse for information about D&D and d20. I say keep the Ennies true to their origins!

 

[eyebeams]

It's no secret that ages ago Teflon Billy wrote some product, Joe Kushner has freelanced on occasion, and PirateCat wrote an early d20 module (PS, PKitty, where's the sequel?!). And I guess some could claim that anyone who acts as a reviewer and receives free product has an industry connection.

Receiving review comps and receiving payment are two entirely different things.

Professionals, freelancers, publishers, etc. can not be judges.
This also helps maintain impartiality and fairness.

Well, obviously they can, because they are. In it's current form, the ENnies are not strictly by and for the fans. They're by fans and occasional industry people. Certainly, the proportion of people with industry credits to fans in the administration of the ENnies is much greater than the proportion in the general hobby, so it obviously has an industry bias.

But what it comes down to is, if the fans selecting the judges think that someone with long past writing credits is whom they wish representing them on the panel, then we should respect their wishes.

Then they aren't fan awards. They're industry awards with a deceptive pretense.

The judge nomination form makes it easy for me to, for example, proxy through somebody I know who happens to be taking a year off from freelancing. The clause disqualifying people who have "relationships" with RPG publishers is ridiculously short and looks like it was designed to provide a veneer of fannishness without disqualifying interested industry parties.

Hell, I think that there's probably more relevant industry influence over the ENnies than the OAs at this point. Some Academy members haven't been active rpg creatives in ages or have permanently left behind producing for the hobby.

I'd love the ENnies to be fan awards, but they aren't.

 

[Treebore]

I think it isn't a point really worth arguing. The judges just nominate what they collectively believe to be the 5 best products in a category. The fans, who can be anyone, including industry professionals and publishers and freelancers are the ones who determine the top one in each category.

So the real question is are the judges trustworthy? I say they are likely to be more trustworthy than many and not as much as some. Plus there is no real way to get better unless you want to start paying for background checks, which still assures us of nothing because people in the government have Top Secret Clearances and the best back ground checks our country knows how to do, and too many of them have turned around and betrayed our country.

So I think we just need to accept the weaknesses of the system (unless you can think of an achieveable fix) and have fun with it.

As for the fans, who have the "real power" to select the best, how do you keep those fans from being publishers, writers, artists, and other RPG industry professionals? You can't.

So accept the weaknesses and just hope you make it through all the hoops to the top spot. Which is what everyone does.

You don't like the fact that so many ENWorlders get to vote? Nothing is keeping you from encouraging your fan base to sign up on ENWorld and vote for their favorites, is it?

That is why I first started coming here. I was initially a big fan of Necromancer and Goodman, still am, really. They asked us on their messageboards to go vote for our favorites. So I signed up and did. Here I am 4 or 5 years later now trying to become a Judge.

All I can say to you, and anyone else who considers voting for me, that I will judge all the products as fairly as I am capable of doing as a human being. Just like I am confident that every past judge has done their best to do. As well as everyone who puts their name into the hat this year.

If you can't live with that then you might as well as ignore every awards ceremony from the Presidential elections, to the Academy Awards on down. All of them require you to trust the judges and the voters.

To expect this, or any awards program, to be perfect, and perfectly fair, is an impossible and unfair expectation. We have to take its flaws into account, fix what we can, and run with it.

The best we can do is pay attention, look for things that can be improved upon, and accept the imperfections that cannot be fixed.

 

[eyebeams]

I think it isn't a point really worth arguing. The judges just nominate what they collectively believe to be the 5 best products in a category. The fans, who can be anyone, including industry professionals and publishers and freelancers are the ones who determine the top one in each category.

This is obviously at odds with the intent of people who talk about how the awards are "fan-run." If you accept the definition of "fan" above -- a definition that goes at odds with previous discussions and definitions of fandom in every other arena, making it dubious to use at face value -- you make the whole distinction meaningless.

So the real question is are the judges trustworthy? I say they are likely to be more trustworthy than many and not as much as some. Plus there is no real way to get better unless you want to start paying for background checks, which still assures us of nothing because people in the government have Top Secret Clearances and the best back ground checks our country knows how to do, and too many of them have turned around and betrayed our country.

It has nothing to do with assuming honesty or dishonesty. If it's a fan award, it should be a fan award. Not a kinda-sorta-fan award that in practice is handed around to people associated with a handful of for-profit companies, including the one that happens to run this site. For me, this means that the ENnies are associated with companies that are direct competitors for the same market segment I target.

The point is not to remove intentional bias. The point is to make the awards as sincere gesture of fan appreciation as practically possible. It doesn't look as sincere when non-fans (by the common definition used in actual fandom instead of a overly vague definition) are a prominent part of the mix.

As for the fans, who have the "real power" to select the best, how do you keep those fans from being publishers, writers, artists, and other RPG industry professionals? You can't.

Sure you can. You can do it by mandating that no judge have any paid credit in the production of a commercial RPG or have recieved payment from a company for any service, with the exception of complimentary product for review.

There, that was easy. Now why isn't it in the rules for a fan award? It ain't rocket science, folks.

So accept the weaknesses and just hope you make it through all the hoops to the top spot. Which is what everyone does.

Obviously, everyone is not doing it. Tim Dugger isn't, and that's why this thread exists. If the awards process has aliented ICE, that's no good, really.

If you can't live with that then you might as well as ignore every awards ceremony from the Presidential elections, to the Academy Awards on down. All of them require you to trust the judges and the voters.

Reductio ad absurdum. You are saying that since you can't make awards totally fair, you may as well just give up. This doesn't make any sense. Having actual fans instead of kinda-sorta-industry folks judge a supposed fan award does make sense?

To expect this, or any awards program, to be perfect, and perfectly fair, is an impossible and unfair expectation. We have to take its flaws into account, fix what we can, and run with it.

Nobody's saying anything about perfection. I'm talking about basic credibility.

If people absolutely cannot do without paid industry people judging, then the ENnies should create a category separate from the fan awards. Otherwise, the ENnies should be an actual fan award.

 

[BSF]

It has nothing to do with assuming honesty or dishonesty. If it's a fan award, it should be a fan award. Not a kinda-sorta-fan award that in practice is handed around to people associated with a handful of for-profit companies, including the one that happens to run this site. For me, this means that the ENnies are associated with companies that are direct competitors for the same market segment I target.

In years past EN Publishing has not been eligible for ENnie awards.

Or maybe you are referring to the fact that the ENnies are associated with EN World and Gen Con? OK, by that definition aren't you kind of saying that once an award has gotten notable enough to actually be noticed it is no longer a 'fan' award?

Or maybe I am just missing something? I admit I am preoccupied mentally at the moment.

Sure you can. You can do it by mandating that no judge have any paid credit in the production of a commercial RPG or have recieved payment from a company for any service, with the exception of complimentary product for review.

There, that was easy. Now why isn't it in the rules for a fan award? It ain't rocket science, folks.

OK, so if you have ever done paid work with anything the relates to RPGs, then you can't judge right? Anything, anytime, ever.

Yet, you would be OK with somebody that did something that was not for pay? Like, say, playtesting? I did a little playtesting back in 2006. It wasn't for pay, except I did get a copy of the rules out of it. And hey, I got a copy of one of the supplements before it was released too. So is that paid work?

According to the guidelines as posted, I am not eligible to be a judge this year. Though if the guidelines follow history, I might be eligible next year. However, would you assert that I should be permanently ineligible?

What about all the playtesters for 3.0? Eligible or not eligible? Playtesters for other systems? Other RPGs? Are they too professional?

*shrug* I tend to think that disclosure is the best way to handle it. Then let the voting for the judges decide who the 'fans' want to pare down the list. Of course, I tend to vote for judges with an odd sense of what I want to see. I want to see people whose opinion I respect going through that list. Preferrably one person that tends to have tastes similar to mine, and another who has tastes dissimilar to mine. Then a few people that I may agree or disagree with, but who can communicate effectively enough that I know why I agree or disagree. Then I look at the list of products the judges think are in the top and I vote on what I know in that list. Sometimes there are products I have never even looked at on the list and I wonder what I missed when it was released.

 

[eyebeams]

In years past EN Publishing has not been eligible for ENnie awards.

Or maybe you are referring to the fact that the ENnies are associated with EN World and en Con? OK, by that definition aren't you kind of saying that once an award has gotten notable enough to actually be noticed it is no longer a 'fan' award?

The awards are closely associated with ENWorld, which is partnered with the EN Publishing brand.

OK, so if you have ever done paid work with anything the relates to RPGs, then you can't judge right? Anything, anytime, ever.

Sounds good. If it really is too strenuous, I'd say three years is a minimum and five sounds about right. One year is way too short.

Yet, you would be OK with somebody that did something that was not for pay? Like, say, playtesting? I did a little playtesting back in 2006. It wasn't for pay, except I did get a copy of the rules out of it. And hey, I got a copy of one of the supplements before it was released too. So is that paid work?

Being on a comp list isn't payment, even in exchange for playtesting. If it needs to be clarified, then we can certainly say that playtesters who receive copies of what they playtested don't count.

(There's an alternate solution I can think of that would be fair but make lots of people angry, and that's to divide the RPG market into amatuer, pro and semipro categories with set thresholds for payment, and disallow people who've done pro or semipro work to get involved. The disadvantage is that a lot of people who thinking of themselves as being industry creatives would be counted as amatuers or semipro workers by any reasonable standard, and this would offend a lot of people in the penny or two a word bracket.)

According to the guidelines as posted, I am not eligible to be a judge this year. Though if the guidelines follow history, I might be eligible next year. However, would you assert that I should be permanently ineligible?

Maybe. Nobody put a gun to your head or mine to work on an RPG product. I'd be happy if neither of us could ever be involved in the awards in any official capacity.

One thing I would like companies to be involved in, on the other hand, is awards promotion. Disinterest in promoting the OAs certainly didn't help it any.

What about all the playtesters for 3.0? Eligible or not eligible? Playtesters for other systems? Other RPGs? Are they too professional?

Depends on whether they were paid money.

 

[BSF]

Being on a comp list isn't payment, even in exchange for playtesting. If it needs to be clarified, then we can certainly say that playtesters who receive copies of what they playtested don't count.

(There's an alternate solution I can think of that would be fair but make lots of people angry, and that's to divide the RPG market into amatuer, pro and semipro categories with set thresholds for payment, and disallow people who've done pro or semipro work to get involved. The disadvantage is that a lot of people who thinking of themselves as being industry creatives would be counted as amatuers or semipro workers by any reasonable standard, and this would offend a lot of people in the penny or two a word bracket.)

See, based on this I can't entirely agree with you. Some playtesting feedback is useful to gauge whether the game plays as intended. Other playtesting feedback borders on game design. In either case though, somebody that is interested in a product to playtest for it might be biased toward that product.

Are we trying to protect against bias or industry ties?

The disclosure is the important thing. Of course, I look at this from the perspective of a gamer, not a publisher. As a gamer, I want to hear why somebody might be suited to wade through a ton of material and narrow down the list to something managable. Somebody that has at least as strong an interest in my hobby as I do looks good. Somebody that has the skills to actually put together a product _might_ be of interest as well. Of course, they might not.

But if you are addressing the perspective of what a publisher is looking for, then I concede that judges without any industry ties might look a bit more appealing. You seem to be approaching it from the perspective of paid work and I can see where that is an easy delineater. However it doesn't work quite that easily in this niche industry.

There are a lot of people involved with RPGs doing unpaid work. The fact that they are unpaid doesn't make them any less, or any more, biased than somebody that was paid to do work. Especially if that work was done years ago.

Maybe. Nobody put a gun to your head or mine to work on an RPG product. I'd be happy if neither of us could ever be involved in the awards in any official capacity.

*shrug* I am an easy example this year. I'm not sure I am that interested in ever being a judge. As much as I would like to give back to the community somehow, there are several ways I can do it. Ways that are probably much easier and hassle free than being an ENnies judge.

One thing I would like companies to be involved in, on the other hand, is awards promotion. Disinterest in promoting the OAs certainly didn't help it any.

No arguement on that! It's a strange little industry in a lot of ways. By the time a product has made it to the Ennies ceremony it has probably made it through it's best selling periods. It would be nice to think that any sort of award would help revive sales and move backstock. But from that I have heard over the last few years that just is not a reality with the current market. Well, except in the PDF market. The PDF market has an 'evergreen' quality where older stock items keep selling if they are of good quality.

Maybe an interesting twist would be to have the publishers associated with PDF outlets to push for an ENnies category. Then all ENnie winners could put those pruducts into that category as well. *shrug* Not sure it would help with sales, but maybe it would?

 

[diaglo]

having been a member of Eric Noah's board and then migrating to EN Wurld for a long time, i guess it is no secret that my hat of d02 know no limits.

in fact, i got tired of seeing the same old same old so that is why i ran last year as a judge. and my campaign promise was that my hat of d02 know no limits.

from the inside i got to see more of how the wheels churned.

if you have any doubts do like i did. run to become a judge.

 

[Rasyr]

There isn't one as I'm sure you've guessed by now.

And that is exactly one of the points I was trying to make. There NEEDS to be one. There needs to be codification, not "rule by whim".

taken to private discussion

Last edited by Dextra : Yesterday at 05:19 PM. Reason: Not worth it

Not worth it? Somebody makes a complaint and first you are dismissive and then stop conversation all together? To me, that just says that you have no intention on taking anybody's complaints or concerns seriously. Nice message to send to the publishers that you are hoping to attract.

I'm afraid EN World's awards program will always be associated with EN World. Sorry to hear we won't be hearing from ICE in the future.

And I am sorry to hear that. You have no idea how sorry. I actually like the ENnies very much and think that they could be a great Award, but not so long as they are ruled by whim (as opposed to codified rules) and not so long as they refuse to break ties with a fan site dedicated to one single system.

I think it isn't a point really worth arguing. The judges just nominate what they collectively believe to be the 5 best products in a category. The fans, who can be anyone, including industry professionals and publishers and freelancers are the ones who determine the top one in each category.

But the judges also get to move products from one category to another on whim. Not based on any set of codified rules that somebody can look at and say "well, those are fair rules", but solely on their discretion. And if one judge gets the notion that an adventure book should also be listed under Best Setting, and if he can convince (or even fast talk) enough of the other judges, then it gets moved over. And does it take a majority (3 judges) or a unanimous vote (all 5) to move the product into a new category? Or does it just take 1 judge? The point here is that we don't know, and we cannot look at a pre-written set of rules and say, "oh! there is the answer".

In the past, I thought that the cats like Best Adventure and Best Setting were judging the entire product, not just a portion of it, apparently I was wrong, but did not know it because the rules were not codified. My concern here is that participants be treated fairly. And unfortunately, there is no way to ensure that because there is no set of rules that participants can look at and see HOW things are done.

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What is boils down to is that ICE is not participating in the awards this year, period. That decision won't change.

In order for ICE to participate in the future, there needs to be some changes.

The changes requested were basically for clarification and codification of the rules, and a request that certain categories be considered exclusive in regards to certain other categories. This done to maintain fairness to ALL the participants, not just those that produce huge books that cross-category boundaries.

Think about that.. Fairness for all or fairness for just those few companies that can make huge products that might fit in multiple categories? Last year, we saw that the fairness extended to the large companies, and the resulting fairness to the small companies? The answer given was basically "Too Bad, deal with it"

I also asked for the ENnies to do what they said that they wanted to do, which is to stand up on their own. Apparently, they consider that this does not mean divorcing themselves from one of the largest fan sites on the internet. They refuse to see that remaining tied to this fan-site can cause unintentional bias among their judges and among the pool of available voters. (In my opinion, these sorts of things can only make the ENnies better (and please notice that none of the request would have a direct impact upon any single participant).

They apparently either refuse to see (or do see and don't care) that they will ALWAYS be considered the d20 awards so long as they remain tied to a d20 fan site. Several posters on THIS thread have pretty much proven that.

And instead of engaging me in conversation, I was treated dismissively (first in a post meant to brush me off, and then again in one where it was edited and the edit note said "not worth it", and then told outright that the ENnies will never be separated from EN World.

That makes me sad. It also means to me that perhaps I should just give up trying to talk to the ENnies board, and should maybe take my arguments to the publishers themselves. At this point though, I am a bit undecided.....