ICE and the ENnies

[Morrus]

And I am sorry to hear that. You have no idea how sorry. I actually like the ENnies very much and think that they could be a great Award, but not so long as they are ruled by whim (as opposed to codified rules) and not so long as they refuse to break ties with a fan site dedicated to one single system.

And instead of engaging me in conversation, I was treated dismissively (first in a post meant to brush me off, and then again in one where it was edited and the edit note said "not worth it", and then told outright that the ENnies will never be separated from EN World.

I'm not sure what you want us to say, frankly, Rasyr. You don't like what the ENnies are and have declared your intention not to be involved. Fair enough. It's been said. Let's move on, eh?

The ENnies are EN World's awards. That's the whole point of them. They're called the ENnies. They're owned by me. They are what they are. I may as well say to you "I'll buy ICE's products as soon as they're no longer associated with ICE".

I'm not trying to argue with you. I'm not trying to persuade you to participate. They're explicity not designed to be influenced by the industry (by which I mean the publishers and, by extension, you). The moment they change to meet publishers' needs (or wants) is the moment they become useless.

As far as I can tell, you're saying "Change them to be the way I want them, or I won't enter". We can only have one response to that (which, generally, is to let it go and carry on organising the awards, rather than endlessly debate them with someone who's declared they're not even going to be involved!)

It also means to me that perhaps I should just give up trying to talk to the ENnies board, and should maybe take my arguments to the publishers themselves.

Feel free! We have absolutely no objection to the ENnies being discussed amongst the publishers and other industry types. In fact, I encourage it!

 

[Rasyr]

The ENnies are EN World's awards. That's the whole point of them. They're called the ENnies. They're owned by me. They are what they are. I may as well say to you "I'll buy ICE's products as soon as they're no longer associated with ICE".

And what they are is a "D20 Award with some other systems for flavor" not a Fan-Based Industry Award.

I am not asking for any sort of special treatment, I am asking for rules to be codified and for those rules to be fair to ALL. Things that should be suggested by common sense.

If you want them to remain tied to EN World, fine, but don't expect the ENnies to be considered an industry wide award when the site they are tied to has a distinct d20 bias to it. THAT has been part of what I was saying.

That and the wanting the rules to be fair for all, which they currently aren't. Correction, from past experience they aren't, as I don't know about right now because the rules are not codified to any great degree.

I am not saying "do it my way or else" I am asking for the ENnies to do it in a way that is fair to all.

If you don't want to be fair to all participants, that is certainly YOUR choice, but my conscious cannot stand by and let the ENnies claim to be fair when they aren't (or at least appear to not be fair....)

 

[Treebore]

I'm sorry you feel that way. Hopefully things will one day give you reason to change your mind.

Like has been indicated, the ENNIEs cannot be allowed to go the way of Origins Awards.

Plus I do not see things your way in how the nominees are selected and the winner determined. The only thing I can really agree with is codified guidleines for the judges to decide which product is best and having categories be clearly defined for one product (meaning the Adventure Path question).

Maybe a Adventure/Setting category. This is simply because a product so big to be able to be both is probably going to be more impressive than something designed to be solely a Adventure or just a setting. Then what are the ENNIE's to do in the years when only one such product is produced and submitted like last year? Give it a Gold by default?

Not an easy question with an easy answer that would make everyone happy.

 

[Rasyr]

I asked for two main things...

1) Rules to be codified. I also asked for clear definition (which is actually part of codifying the rules). It is unfair to the participants if they do not know the rules by which they will be judged (and saying "the best" doesn't tell anybody squat). Last year the debacle with Shackled City highlighted the "rule by whim" problem that is inherent in the ENnies. Categories need to be clearly defined.

As others have agreed in earlier posts, I also think that certain categories should be exclusive to other categories. However, those in charge of the ENnies apparently disagree, to the point of ignoring what some of their fans are saying. A fan-based award that ignores what the fans are saying? If they were really interested, then they would have opened dialog on the topic to get an even wider viewpoint and to see what the opinion of the fans are on this topic, rather than just blowing it off and saying that people voting for the awards says that they are heading in the right direction.

I never denied that they are heading in the right direction, only that last year, they did something that veers from that direction and that if they don't fix it, they won't stay going in the right direction. Only to be told to take a hike (though not in those exact words).

2) Make the ENnies stand on their own. Morrus has already stated his full intention to never separate the ENnies from EN World. Since EN World is the world's largest d20 fan site that makes the ENnies the awards of the world's largest d20 fan site, NOT a fan-based industry award.

Instead of treating everybody the same, d20 fans who are registered at EN World get special treatment. Fans of other systems are FORCED to visit the world's largest d20 fan site in order to vote on the ENnies.

I am trying to point out that the ENnies cannot claim to be more than a d20 Fan award so long as it treats fans of other systems differently by forcing them to come here.

I asked that the ENnies processes be performed on the ENnies website. You know make EVERYBODY go to the same place, not show favortism by making "EVERYBODY BUT MY MEMBERS" go to a site that is dedicated to a rival system.

By moving the judge selection and voting processes to the ENnies website, what does that do? It inconveniences the EN World Members is what it does. You don't care about inconveniencing people who want to support other systems, only those who visit your site.

Somebody also madea statement about getting publishers to support the ENnies. Do you really think that Steve Jackson or White Wolf or ICE or any other non-d20 publisher is going to fully support something fully tied to the world's largest fan site of a competitor?

You need a wake up call.

I am asking for there to be fairness, not special treatment.

Asking for fairness is not the same as saying

I may as well say to you "I'll buy ICE's products as soon as they're no longer associated with ICE".

It is more like saying "I'll buy ICE's products as soon as I am not forced to wade through ICE's website to get to them"

And you know what? We don't force you to come to the ICE website, so why should ICE fans be forced to come to a d20 website to deal with the ENnies? To the ENnies website, yes. To a website that is devoted to a competitor, no.

 

[Morrus]

And you know what? We don't force you to come to the ICE website, so why should ICE fans be forced to come to a d20 website to deal with the ENnies? To the ENnies website, yes. To a website that is devoted to a competitor, no.

You've lost me. The website's at www.ennieawards.com, not enworld.org. Am I missing something here, because I honestly don't understand your point?

As others have agreed in earlier posts, I also think that certain categories should be exclusive to other categories. However, those in charge of the ENnies apparently disagree, to the point of ignoring what some of their fans are saying.

Who disagrees? The policy makers each year are elected. They haven't been elected yet - or even nominated. If you want my *personal* opinion (which is not what will decide how things work this year), I tend to agree about SCAP.

 

[eyebeams]

See, based on this I can't entirely agree with you. Some playtesting feedback is useful to gauge whether the game plays as intended. Other playtesting feedback borders on game design. In either case though, somebody that is interested in a product to playtest for it might be biased toward that product.

I think we can allow people to recuse themselves in such margnal cases. There aren't many situations where the playtesters substantially redesign a game. They may make comments that cause a redesign or suggest systems, but I speak from experience when I say there's a difference between a guy saying "Why don't you try X" and a designer rolling X a million times on a dice simulator, comparing it with other methods and then turning that into parsable text.

Again, you can't make it perfect, but you can certainly make it a lot less screwy.

Are we trying to protect against bias or industry ties?

I simply believe that the ENnies should be legitimate fan awards. Right now they aren't really any such thing. Frankly, if there are so few RPG fans who aren't affiliated with product production and marketing, RPGs are screwed. Fortunately, I think there are plenty of people who should fit the bill of being fans and nothing but fans. If the ENnies can't organize itself to find these people, there's a problem.

The disclosure is the important thing. Of course, I look at this from the perspective of a gamer, not a publisher. As a gamer, I want to hear why somebody might be suited to wade through a ton of material and narrow down the list to something managable. Somebody that has at least as strong an interest in my hobby as I do looks good. Somebody that has the skills to actually put together a product _might_ be of interest as well. Of course, they might not.

The charm of the ENnies is that it's a fan award. Another award dominated by some industry faction, no matter how minor, is kind of unnecessary.

But if you are addressing the perspective of what a publisher is looking for, then I concede that judges without any industry ties might look a bit more appealing. You seem to be approaching it from the perspective of paid work and I can see where that is an easy delineater. However it doesn't work quite that easily in this niche industry.

There are a lot of people involved with RPGs doing unpaid work. The fact that they are unpaid doesn't make them any less, or any more, biased than somebody that was paid to do work. Especially if that work was done years ago.

Everybody's biased; that's not the point. But it does make a difference if you have even a tenuous commercial interest in the mix. Plus, where the hell's the charm in having some freelancer judge? If I want to know what a freelance game writer or designer thinks I'll email some of 'em. I really do want to get an idea of how a small group of consumers/fans mentally structures and assesses the hobby. I already know about how industry people think about the hobby because nobody'll shut up about it.

Money really does make a difference. I know you have marginal cases of playtesting for pay and work for comps, but I think the awards can deal with making these decisions as long as they're guided by something that says, "No industry work for at least 3-5 years," instead oif the current system of there being no guidelines and it obviously not working, as it clearly doesn't when 2 of the 06 fan judges have industry credits.

No arguement on that! It's a strange little industry in a lot of ways. By the time a product has made it to the Ennies ceremony it has probably made it through it's best selling periods. It would be nice to think that any sort of award would help revive sales and move backstock. But from that I have heard over the last few years that just is not a reality with the current market. Well, except in the PDF market. The PDF market has an 'evergreen' quality where older stock items keep selling if they are of good quality.

Maybe an interesting twist would be to have the publishers associated with PDF outlets to push for an ENnies category. Then all ENnie winners could put those pruducts into that category as well. *shrug* Not sure it would help with sales, but maybe it would?

Not a bad idea.

 

[Dextra]

Here's your hat, what's your hurry?

Tim,

I try not to respond to trolls, and since you obviously have such a hate on for all things d20 and anything remotely associated with them yet still post here, I confess I'd relegated you to troll status. It's not worth rehashing everything with you here. My email address is not a secret, if you want to continue this discussion with me in private, fine. But I'm not going to help add fuel to your fire here.

I do care what you and others have to say, and have made many changes over the years, including moving the ENnies off EN World and opening the voting and judgehood to non EN Worlders. Over the past six months we've been moving towards better-defiined categories, and making certain that certain products cannot cross too many categories. If you had taken the time to ASK rather than start posturing about how you were going to take your bat and ball and go home, you would know these things.

There's not much more that we can or will do, and quite frankly, it's not my responsibility to please the publishers.

denise@ennieawards.com

 

[Rasyr]

You've lost me. The website's at www.ennieawards.com, not enworld.org. Am I missing something here, because I honestly don't understand your point?

Yes, there is an ENnies website, but what takes place there? Not the selection of the judges, not the voting on the ENnies. The only thing the site is used for is to display information after the fact.

All meaningful discussion regarding the selection of judges is happening here on EN World, the world's largest d20 fan site. White Wolf fans, ICE fans, Palladium fans, etc.. are not going to want to come here to discuss what you want folks to consider as an industry-wide fan-based award.

If I gave you your own forum (and made you its moderator) over on the ICE website (or even on my own personal webiste) to use for all ENnies discussions, how many d20 fans do you think would go there to discuss the ENnies?

Not many, simply because they won't want to go to the website of a competitor of their favorite system. The same reasoning applies to the fans of the other systems. They don't want to come here. I have already had to slightly reprimand one poster on the ICE forums for being a bit too vehement in his comments in the thread that Treebore started over there.

Now, if the ENnies website has their own set of forums, and the the voting took place on THE ENnies website (as opposed to on the EN World website), then that would be fair to ALL potential voters, and not treating one group with favoritism. Those who want to be involved in discussing the ENnies could do so, without worry of being bashed by the d20 community for supporting another system or for posting their views.

Additionally, by tying things to these forums you are specifically limiting the voting pool to those you have not previously banned from the forums. Yes, I saw that the blurb for this year says that registration on the forums is not required, and that is a major step forward, but do the bans from the forums still affect who can access the voting site? If so, then that is another way in which the ENnies are being unfair - as they would not be allowing everybody the chance to vote.

Yes, you own the ENnies, and you have the right to do with them what you want. I am just trying to point out that what you are currently doing with them is NOT FAIR to all, and that if you WANT the ENnies to be accepted industry-wide, then you have to make changes to accomplish that goal. As long as you keep them tied to a d20 fan site, they will be the d20 fan awards and nothing more, no matter how many other systems are entered...

Who disagrees? The policy makers each year are elected. They haven't been elected yet - or even nominated. If you want my *personal* opinion (which is not what will decide how things work this year), I tend to agree about SCAP.

Somehow or another I missed the following the first time I read Dextra's post. Then again, it was edited after I had read it (and opened it into a new window for replying to the bottom portion), so I don't know if I only missed it or it was added during the edit . Since I didn't quote that portion in my response, I just don't know.

But I was under the impression that the Board set the policy, not the judges. That seems like another problem area.

Whether we will allow such a thing again this year has yet to be determined. I suspect that we may limit each entry to one type of category in which it may compete, but that's not a done deal. That's up to the Board and the newly-elected crop of judges.

But this brings up the issue of not having a codified set of rules to start from. Participants have no idea what the rules are from year to year. There should be a solid, written set of rules that participants can count on (and that is what I am trying to stress). Not a set of rules that can drastically change from year to year depending upon which judges are elected.

If the ENnies had a codified set of rules and perhaps a set of guidelines that dictated how those rules can be changed.

In short, I can disagree with rules you use and still participate. However, what I won't do is participate in something that has no codified set of rules, and refuses to create a set, and who changes those rules from year to year (or has the potential to change them from year to year on the whim of the judges).

The judges should not be setting policy, they should be implementing it. And once again, it falls back to it all happening on EN World rather than on the ENnies website. It should be happening there, not here.

In any case, it still falls back on two main points:

1) Codified rules (that cannot be changed on a whim -- note that that was another complaint against the OAs (there were many problems with them), that the rules could be changed from year to year without notice).

2) Moving all ENnies processes to the ENnies website, not having them on a the world's largest d20-dedicated fan site.

 

[Henry]

All meaningful discussion regarding the selection of judges is happening here on EN World, the world's largest d20 fan site. White Wolf fans, ICE fans, Palladium fans, etc.. are not going to want to come here to discuss what you want folks to consider as an industry-wide fan-based award.

Just a point: You say that as if the ONLY thing that goes on here is discussion of d20 gaming, when this is not the case. It's the majority of what's discussed here, but the forums have grown out to other discussions over time. The ENnies, as they stand now, are indeed not some idealized industry-wide award; but there's no need for it to be right this minute, either, because like everything else in this world it's got to grow and evolve and see what it ends up becoming. I'd rather let it do that organic growth, and celebrate what it is now, rather than too quickly force it into something that it's not, just as the Origin awards were by tons of competing forces.

If one doesn't want to participate, then great; if one decides to jump back in when things are more to their liking, then great, too. If you choose not to participate, and try in your own way to change from within, working with the system instead of against it, then that's your choice. But I personally would hate to see it make changes that would possibly doom it ahead of time through good-intentioned tinkering.

 

[Rasyr]

I try not to respond to trolls, and since you obviously have such a hate on for all things d20 and anything remotely associated with them yet still post here, I confess I'd relegated you to troll status. It's not worth rehashing everything with you here. My email address is not a secret, if you want to continue this discussion with me in private, fine. But I'm not going to help add fuel to your fire here.

Right... So now I am relegated to the status of troll, because I think that the ENnies need to be fair to everybody. And I supposedly hate d20 because I feel that the ENnies have a bias towards it.

First off, I don't hate d20. I actually like it quite a lot, even though I have a few issues with how it does things (then again, no system is perfect, not even the one I wrote). I seriously doubt that you could find any sort of post from me, anywhere, that has me purposely bashing d20.

You seem to think that this is about the d20 system. It isn't and it shows that you are not even bothering to read what I am saying since I have specifically stated that several times now. This is about fairness to the participants and to the voters and to not showing favoritism to one group by forcing the others to a different site (a site about a system that is NOT their favorite system) but not that group.

Continue the discussion in private? So I can be relegated to troll again, this time in private? Sorry, but I don't think so. Why can't these things be discussed publicly? These are fan-based awards, so why shouldn't they get to have a say in them?

The Board should be the ones making the decisions, but they should be listening and holding open discussions.

I do care what you and others have to say, and have made many changes over the years, including moving the ENnies off EN World

Moving the static pages off is not the same as moving the voting and judge selection off, which I note has not happened as of yet, not that I have seen.

and opening the voting and judgehood to non EN Worlders. Over the past six months we've been moving towards better-defiined categories, and making certain that certain products cannot cross too many categories. If you had taken the time to ASK rather than start posturing about how you were going to take your bat and ball and go home, you would know these things.

Yes, some progress has been made but not enough. I refer again to my two main points. Codified rules and Fairness for all participants/voters.

There's not much more that we can or will do, and quite frankly, it's not my responsibility to please the publishers.

Please the publishers? No. I don't expect nor want you to even attempt to please the publishers. However....

Treat them all fairly? Yes. The rules used last year did not treat them all fairly. Not having a codified set of rules does not treat them fairly. Forcing their fans to come to the world's largest d20 fan site to vote on the ENnies does not treat them fairly.

Now, you cannot tell publishers what criteria the public will use to judge them, but you can be fair and tell them what criteria the judges will be using to select their nominations, but the ENnies don't even do that yet, not in any codified manner.