ICE and the ENnies

[Shalimar]

As someone who has never heard of ICE, and this is my first exposure to it, I am getting a very negative opinion of it. What is coming across is an ICE Publisher or employee is trying to muscle his way in and control a FAN award. Publishers have no business trying to control the process of a fan award, and Rasyr's posts are coming across as heavy handed and ultimatum strewn. He has been told what the policies are and how they were already changing to fix some of the things he mentioned, he has been told his threats wont change things and he needs to put up, ICE not participating anymore as he said, or shut up.

I'd point out that people's purchasing habits are influenced by their opinions of the people who make the product. I would just like to add that apparently a person like me cannot exist, I don't particularly like the D20 system, I enjoy WoD and Shadowrun far more, and yet I hang here where it is possible to play in games of various systems, and discuss sci-fi and fantasy things in the media lounge.

 

[Rasyr]

If one doesn't want to participate, then great; if one decides to jump back in when things are more to their liking, then great, too. If you choose not to participate, and try in your own way to change from within, working with the system instead of against it, then that's your choice.

I am working within what the current system allows me. I cannot run for judge, not unless I want to quit my job. I cannot do more than I am doing right now, forcing the things that I see as wrong out into the light and trying to get a dialog going on about them.

But I personally would hate to see it make changes that would possibly doom it ahead of time through good-intentioned tinkering.

Being fair to publishers and their fans is doom???

 

[Rasyr]

Publishers have no business trying to control the process of a fan award, and Rasyr's posts are coming across as heavy handed and ultimatum strewn. He has been told what the policies are and how they were already changing to fix some of the things he mentioned, he has been told his threats wont change things and he needs to put up, ICE not participating anymore as he said, or shut up.

To be absolutely clear, I am not trying to control the awards, or to make threats of any sort. I am trying to urge towards keeping the awards fair for all. I am speaking up for those fans that won't come here because it is a d20 site.

Since ICE is not participating in the awards this year, I felt that I could speak up (as I officially have no stake in the awards this year). Perhaps I should have made this two separate posts to begin with (but then again, I would have likely been accused of something else).

However, since bring this topic up, I have been dismissed out of hand, and been called a troll, and all for wanting what I think could be a VERY EXCELLENT award become that, to reach its potential.

Have I asked for anything that would give one publisher an advantage over another? No I have asked for things that to ensure fairness and consistency, nothing more. I may not have phrased it well sometimes, but that is all I am after.

Keep in mind, I am only human.. and I can make mistakes...

 

[Morrus]

All meaningful discussion regarding the selection of judges is happening here on EN World, the world's largest d20 fan site. White Wolf fans, ICE fans, Palladium fans, etc.. are not going to want to come here to discuss what you want folks to consider as an industry-wide fan-based award.
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The only major discussion taking place at present it this one, in a thread you started here on EN World. Again, you've lost me.

We don't want a centralised ENnies discussion point. That's why the ENnies site doesn't have messageboards. We want them discussed far and wide.

So, if you mean what you preach - go talk about this on RPGnet, The Forge, RPGHost, and anywhere else you feel like it. But don't blame us for the location of a thread which you started.

The Board should be the ones making the decisions

It's a democratic process, with elected policy makers each year. This is deliberate to prevent bias and industry influence, not to create it.

Yes, there is an ENnies website, but what takes place there? Not the selection of the judges, not the voting on the ENnies. The only thing the site is used for is to display information after the fact.

The ENnies voting did not take place on EN World last year.

Rasyr, with all due respect, what are you talking about? Undertand that, to me, this is coming across as an incoherent rant with little basis in fact. I don't think you mean it to be, but I'm just having trouble getting to the core of your point, when the examples you rpovide tend to not be accurate. Are you sure it's the ENnies you're talking about, and you haven't confused them with some other awards prgram?

 

[BSF]

All meaningful discussion regarding the selection of judges is happening here on EN World, the world's largest d20 fan site. White Wolf fans, ICE fans, Palladium fans, etc.. are not going to want to come here to discuss what you want folks to consider as an industry-wide fan-based award.

If I gave you your own forum (and made you its moderator) over on the ICE website (or even on my own personal webiste) to use for all ENnies discussions, how many d20 fans do you think would go there to discuss the ENnies?

Not many, simply because they won't want to go to the website of a competitor of their favorite system. The same reasoning applies to the fans of the other systems. They don't want to come here. I have already had to slightly reprimand one poster on the ICE forums for being a bit too vehement in his comments in the thread that Treebore started over there.

You keep saying this type of thing over and over. Frankly, I find it a tad insulting. Who are you to say that I am not a fan of other game systems?

My nearest bookshelf has my copy of Feng Shui, True20 and Arcana Unearthed on it. This is the shelf nearest my gaming table, where I am currently typing this missive.

Next to my bed are two Exalted books, Harp's Cyradon and, oddly enough, an old copy of Treasures of Middle Earth.

Light reading, if you will.

Yeah, I play d20 games. That isn't all that I play. Games new and old can be found throughout my house. I also happen to post here at EN World. Mostly at EN World because I prefer the tone and community here. It is different elsewhere and I don't enjoy posting at other places as much.

The ENnies were spawned from EN World. That is the history, those are the roots. It was this community that breathed life into the ENnies. Others, all others, are invited to join us. All others are invited to participate at whatever level they want. Many people do not like the tone here. Sure that has to do with the d20 tone, but it also has to do with the Code of Conduct as well as the sense of community that exists. Not everybody is comfortable with that community.

I understand what you are saying. I can concede that the appearance of bias exists. But frankly, I am not that interested in that perception. Even with all this bias, non-d20 games can be nominated. Non-d20 games can win. Why? Because we are all gamers and we like to recognize that good games exist. Even if we can't happen to find a group to run that game on a regular basis, even if we appreciate the game and keep playing some d20 game, we can appreciate good work and recognize a good game for what it is.

 

[Morrus]

Even with all this bias, non-d20 games can be nominated. Non-d20 games can win.

Not only can, but have. In fact, I'm pretty sure (off the top of my head - not checking) that ICE won a silver ENnie.

 

[Henry]

I am working within what the current system allows me. I cannot run for judge, not unless I want to quit my job. I cannot do more than I am doing right now, forcing the things that I see as wrong out into the light and trying to get a dialog going on about them.

You can do that, AND you can submit entries for awards, and win them by talking them up at various sites, campaign for products, get more people from all gaming interests participating, if you see it as totally ENWorld-dominated and thus a bad thing.

Being fair to publishers and their fans is doom???

I refer back to quotes from Chris Pramas and Mike Mearls, one about cross-purpose interests being a problem with the Origins awards, and Mike Mearls talking about any awards having a need for independence from the publishers, rather than being influenced by them. What starts as an initiative to be fair to publishers could become a problem that damages the awards irreparably. Hence my desire for gradual changes rather than dramatic ones.

 

[Rasyr]

sigh.... I never said other games couldn't win, I just said that there was an innate bias towards d20 because the awards are hosts/discussed/presented/whatever here.

I posted here Morrus, because regardless of where I post, this is the DE FACTO home of the forums. Whether you want to see that or not. Besides, I am not referring to discussion regarding the Ennies themselves by fans, I am talking about discussions by those in charge of the ENnies. This is the defacto place for it.

Here is where the ENnies has its hidden forum for the judges to discuss entrants. Here is where everything important to the ENnies is done.

If you refuse to remove the blinders to see that it weakens the overall value of the awards to be closely associated with a single system, then so be it. I will stop discussing it here.

BUt, so long as the ENnies are all happening here rather than on their own site, I will refer to them as the "d20 Fan Awards" as that is the reality of what they are.

BSF - you might not be interested in that appearance of bias, but then again you don't have to be. Publishers do have to be concerned about it (and for d20 publishers, that appearance works for them), and I have had one fan foaming at the mouth at Treebore over being required to come to a d20 fan site to vote for what is supposedly an industry-wide award, that I have to be concerned about it as well. I received comments last year also.

I am sure that other publishers have as well.

EN World is an excellent site, and many of the folks that I have dealt with here are extremely well read when it comes to games and they are usually quite polite when other show up, however, that portion of EN Worlders is not representative of every single person on this site.

Enough... As I said above, I give up talking about this topic here. I made my points. Take them for what you will (you will anyways).

 

[DaveMage]

sigh.... I never said other games couldn't win, I just said that there was an innate bias towards d20 because the awards are hosts/discussed/presented/whatever here.

Sad thing is, there really aren't enough d20 products to have a d20 bias anymore. (Although if Ptolus sweeps the majority of the awards, there is no doubt that claims of a d20 bias will be invoked, even though Ptolus (IMO) pretty much blows away any RPG accessory ever created.)

Indeed, the ENnies have virtually become irrelevant as a d20 award (due to the market). The only way they can evolve is as an RPG award in general.

The obvious disocnnect here, is that EN World *is* a D&D/d20 (mostly) exclusive site, but the awards are not. But what to do?

 

[Henry]

But, so long as the ENnies are all happening here rather than on their own site, I will refer to them as the "d20 Fan Awards" as that is the reality of what they are.

Or, you could just refer to them as the ENnies, as that is the reality of what they are.

But seriously, it sounds like an impasse of what you want versus what's happening. Changes will happen over time, it's not like it's some stodgy Academy Acting Award who hasn't changed its policies in 50 years (written down or not); but whether it will change in a fashion you'll be comfortable with I have no clue.