Ideal all-in-one RPG software package

[Vascant]

Me? I omitted things from my list that I thought were blindingly obvious.

As they say, never assume. Example, over 2000 people have sent me an email to be involved in Alpha Testing for Evolution. I have but a handful that have reported more then, wow or that's cool. Now I don't know about you but "wow" does not tell me if the spell selection interface is saving correctly and providing the correct results in an output sheet?

Surely you mean they're designed to handle that list.

No, I can speak for myself that I never intended to handle this list. I intended for users (myself included) to be able to expand upon Evolution without needing to update or look for a central developer to make changes. While it may just be term usage between us, in my eyes they are two different things. I do know RPGF did start out with a desired set of functionality, which does lend itself to handling those things on the list. I think the end result is we all have different lists, just so happens we have many of the same items on each list.

Well, my little project certainly isn't realistic. Even its name reflects my expectation that it will suck.

I never put "Has to suck" on any of my list of goals.. so can't comment

It sounds like a race. I wonder who'll win.

[/QUOTE]
I don't think it is a race since we target different users, there is no single market as far as software is concerned due to the different groups looking for a different set of functionality. Just as any software, some targets the normal user while others target power users. I think things will stay much the same as it is today, you find an application that fits your desires and needs.

 

[boB S]

Avoid the d20 license; the "nudge nudge" technique is sufficient. ("It's compatible with a Major Roleplaying System Which I Can't Name - Know What I Mean, Nudge Nudge, Know What I Mean, Say No More")

As I contemplate whether I want to expend effort on this programming mega-project, I have been scanning the d20 licensing materials on Wizard's site. If I understand what I am reading correctly, the license is designed to prevent anyone from coding software that would give it much of the utility we have been discussing in this thread. For instance, the program could not legally resolve combat scenarios. The program cannot resolve any scenarios that would in a paper-and-pencil game require dice rolls, etc!! Is this your understanding as well? If this is so, then markbuda's advice is well-spoken!

 

[kingpaul]

Which license are you reading? The OGL or the d20 STL?

 

[boB S]

Which license are you reading? The OGL or the d20 STL?

I was actually looking at all of it, but the d20 guide I found the most disturbing:

"You may indicate that a player should use a race, class, ability, etc., presented in a Covered Product in addition to, or exclusive of, those presented in the Dungeons & Dragons Player's Handbook or d20 Modern Roleplaying Game. In no way should this paragraph be construed to allow you to present the process for creating a character as defined in the previous paragraph"

Or:

"Mandatory Restrictions:

No Covered Product may contain rules or instructions of any kind that:

· Describe a process for Creating a Character
· Describe a process for Applying the Effects of Experience to a Character

No Covered Product may change or extend the definition of any Defined Game Term as enumerated in this Guide.

No Covered Product may include “Miniatures.”

No Covered Product may use the term “Core Book” on its cover, title, advertising, or self-reference.

No Covered Product may be an "Interactive Game" as defined in this Guide"

This last line seems to gut most of the potential utility of this thread's dream program as they define "interactive game" as follows:

" "Interactive Game": means a piece of software that is designed to accept inputs from human players or their agents, and use rules to resolve the success or failure of those inputs, and return some indication of the results of those inputs to the users. Success and failure includes any determination wherein one outcome is preferable to another. This includes the random determination of hit points, ability scores, and the like."

Your question seems to suggest that I may be overlooking some crucial differences between the two licenses that might be to my benefit. In the interim I will go back and look at the OGL more carefully, especially since I only paid cursory attention to it.

I must be overlooking something since many of the computer aids I've glanced at seem to violate this "Interactive Game" restriction.

 

[boB S]

Also, looking at the SRD FAQ, they say the following:

"Q: What's missing from the SRD compared to the core D&D rulebooks?

A: Mostly the "flavor" elements. There are no named gods, none of the spells have significant NPC names, there's no mention of Greyhawk, etc. You'll also note that there are no rules for character creation, for advancing characters in level, calculating experience, or anything else related to the topics forbidden by the d20 System Trademark Guide."

So, even though the SRD is open game content, the "Interactive Game" prohibitions are still in place in any contemplated software project incorporating the SRD.

Am I missing anything?

 

[markbuda]

Also, looking at the SRD FAQ, they say the following:

"Q: What's missing from the SRD compared to the core D&D rulebooks?

A: Mostly the "flavor" elements. There are no named gods, none of the spells have significant NPC names, there's no mention of Greyhawk, etc. You'll also note that there are no rules for character creation, for advancing characters in level, calculating experience, or anything else related to the topics forbidden by the d20 System Trademark Guide."

So, even though the SRD is open game content, the "Interactive Game" prohibitions are still in place in any contemplated software project incorporating the SRD.

Am I missing anything?

Yes, you're missing this:

Q: So what kinds of programs can I make with the OGL?

A: Anything. Character generators are popular, as are programs that help GMs keep track of their adventure. Random treasure generators are also fun.

Q: So I could make a game?

A: Sure. Remember though, you cannot use any Product Identity with the OGL or claim compatibility with anything. So you can't say your game is a d20 System game or uses D&D rules or call it "Elminster's Undermountain Crawl."

The SRD is gutted so you don't get character generation or level advancement rules using it and the OGL, and the d20 license keeps it that way.

The d20 license prohibits functionality necessary to the software we are talking about. All we have is the SRD under OGL. Which means we don't have rules to advance a character's level. Now, there are probably other OGL games which contain rules for advancing a level. A sufficiently general program that can support multiple rule systems and mix and match parts of them should be able to support the d20 level advancement rules as a special case (configured by the user) of a more general system.

The SRD module could even come with a README section that points out what is missing from it.

Also it may be possible to deduce certain rules from the SRD. For example, the 3.5 SRD contains this statement:

All types have a number of feats equal to 1 + 1 per 3 Hit Dice.

Say, have you noticed that monsters and characters are treated almost identically in the SRD? I have. Oh, look, my software lets me apply that rule about monsters to characters because it is designed to treat monsters and characters as slight variations on the same kind of thing (which they are).

And this:

A character cannot spend so much XP on an item that he or she loses a level. However, upon gaining enough XP to attain a new level, he or she can immediately expend XP on creating an item rather than keeping the XP to advance a level.

What? When a character gains XP they gain a level? It's a good thing the SRD data file for this program was written with such care and attention to detail.

Most creatures are built using the standard array of ability scores: 11, 11, 11, 10, 10, 10, adjusted by racial modifiers.

Oh look, this great program presents me with all the possible ways of rolling standard dice so that the average is 10.5 - I think I'll choose 3d6 for my next campaign. Or maybe 4d6 and toss the lowest. Or 5d6 and toss the 2 lowest. It sure gives me a lot of options.

And so on. A lot of the rules for level advancement are hidden away, implied but not explicitly stated in the other rules.

 

[boB S]

markbuda said:

Yes, you're missing this:

Quote:
Originally Posted by OGL Software FAQ
Q: So what kinds of programs can I make with the OGL?

A: Anything. Character generators are popular, as are programs that help GMs keep track of their adventure. Random treasure generators are also fun.

Q: So I could make a game?

A: Sure. Remember though, you cannot use any Product Identity with the OGL or claim compatibility with anything. So you can't say your game is a d20 System game or uses D&D rules or call it "Elminster's Undermountain Crawl."

I had seen this, but it didn't seem helpful for my cause, essentially because...

The SRD is gutted you you don't get character generation or level advancement rules using it and the OGL, and the d20 license keeps it that way.

The d20 license prohibits functionality necessary to the software we are talking about. All we have is the SRD under OGL. Which means we don't have rules to advance a character's level.

And the d20 licensing stuff will allow one to resolve combat, etc., in a strictly PnP gaming session, but not if a "program" is being used, since then it would be an "Interactive Game."

All of this has convinced me that if I follow through on this project, that I need to avoid entirely the OGL/d20 complex. Additionally, if I understand the legalities, I then could make statements in advertising my product that it is compatible with AD&D, D&D, etc.

 

[markbuda]

All of this has convinced me that if I follow through on this project, that I need to avoid entirely the OGL/d20 complex. Additionally, if I understand the legalities, I then could make statements in advertising my product that it is compatible with AD&D, D&D, etc.

I don't think that's right. D&D, AD&D, d20, etc. are trademarks that Wizards owns. You can't use them in advertising/marketing a product without their permission (unless it's a totally unrelated kind of product - you could sell d20 dishwashers, for instance).

What Wizards is saying with the OGL and the d20 license boils down to this: "You can use most of the rules in the core books but you can't use our trademarks unless you agree to tell people to buy the core books from us - and even then there are a few things you can't use, so that people will have an incentive to buy the core books. And we've given another company the exclusive rights to make computer games out of this stuff, so we're sorry, we can't let you do that, even if we want to."

 

[boB S]

I don't think that's right. D&D, AD&D, d20, etc. are trademarks that Wizards owns. You can't use them in advertising/marketing a product without their permission (unless it's a totally unrelated kind of product - you could sell d20 dishwashers, for instance).

From Open Game License:
Frequently Asked Questions
Version 2.0 -- January 26, 2004

Q: My understanding of Trademark law is that it is legal for me to indicate compatibility or co-adaptability with a Trademark so long as I don't dilute the mark, confuse consumers about the ownership of the mark, or attempt to claim ownership of the mark. How can the OGL stop me from using a Trademark in a way that is otherwise completely legal?

A: The terms of the Open Game License supercede the terms of general Trademark law. By agreeing to accept the Open Game License, gaining the benefit of the consideration of being able to use Open Game Content under the terms of the OGL, you limit certain other rights that you might otherwise have.

This was my a priori understanding of trademark/copyright issues, that if I am adding substantially original functionality that can be used with some other product then I can claim that compatibility. Wizards apparently thinks so, too, but if I eventually have a real product to market, then I would want to check more carefully into this. So, in this sense it is to my advantage to totally avoid using the OGL/d20 complex.

What Wizards is saying with the OGL and the d20 license boils down to this: "You can use most of the rules in the core books but you can't use our trademarks unless you agree to tell people to buy the core books from us - and even then there are a few things you can't use, so that people will have an incentive to buy the core books. And we've given another company the exclusive rights to make computer games out of this stuff, so we're sorry, we can't let you do that, even if we want to."

I agree wholeheartedly with your comment! Additionally, I am of the opinion that WotC is doing all they legally can to control the fantasy RPG market, particularly electronic products.

Enough of this! I am now going out to have a nice lunch a see the new Harry Potter movie!!

 

[Nylanfs]

Okay Sorry I was late to chime in on this, been busy at work. the d20STL is "Specifically" designed to prohibit any type of computer aid. This is most likely in my opinion do to the many contracts Hasbro has with various game makers (Note: my opinion and IANAL)

The OGL has no such restrictions which is why PCGen opted to drop the d20 resrictions and go with straight OGL. Under the OGL rules you can define character advancement, the effects of applying XP to a character etc. You can also gather these rules by analyzing the rules defined in the SRD.