ideas for building a dragon killing druid (needed for backstory)

[Lord Pendragon]

Okay, I have read the description of survival two times and, despite beeing quater past midnight here, I am pretty sure that nowhere it says that you can use survival to hide a campside. So where do you get this from?

My DM, and myself as a DM. Not every use of every skill is going to be described in its description. When in the wild, concealing a campsite has always been Survival with my crew, Wilderness Lore in 3.0.

And what happens when the dragon stays in his lair? The whole call lightning and rethreat into a tree trick requires the dragon to be outside of his lair. But what does the druid do when the dragon is inside?

He waits. Dragons have to eat like everyone else. They have things to do, treasure to collect. It's going to have to leave at some point, and when it does, it's going to get zapped again. Eventually, it'll fail its save, turn into a bunny, and get squished in the jaws of a wildshaped druid.

Also the dragon can relocate every day together with his treasure. Where is the problem?

lol. See, I'm not sure how much longer this discussion can continue, because now we've come to the point where your counter-arguments simply don't make any sense to me. What is the dragon going to do, pile all of its treasure into a sack, sling it over its shoulder, and start carrying it along with it to the bottom of a different swampy lake every day? 17,000gp is a lot of treasure to do that with.

Spellcraft check DC 18. Not automatically, but still a possibility for the dragon to make.

The spellcraft DC is for knowing what spell was cast. It tells you absolutely nothing about where the druid is or what form he's taken. And since the dragon wouldn't be near enough to hear any somatic components or see any verbal components (assuming there are any with Natural Spell), the DC would be considerably tougher than 18.

Actually, natural spell doesn't say that it masks spellcasting, so the dragon would automatically recognize that the animal casts a spell by the RAW.

Not true. Unless the animal is standing beside the dragon when he's spellcasting, of course. In which case, sure. At the range of Call Lightning Storm, though, it ain't going to happen.

Now its on you to research which trees grow in swamps, how thick they are and how much trees there are in average.

Um, no, it isn't. I'm perfectly happy assuming Tree Stride has a range of 6 miles. If you want to disprove me, the onus is on you to prove it.

 

[Derren]

My DM, and myself as a DM. Not every use of every skill is going to be described in its description. When in the wild, concealing a campsite has always been Survival with my crew, Wilderness Lore in 3.0.

So it is a houserule. By the RAW only the hide skill counts.

He waits. Dragons have to eat like everyone else. They have things to do, treasure to collect. It's going to have to leave at some point, and when it does, it's going to get zapped again. Eventually, it'll fail its save, turn into a bunny, and get squished in the jaws of a wildshaped druid.

Which pretty much defeats the whole call lightning tactic as the dragon can heal in his lair undisturbed.

lol. See, I'm not sure how much longer this discussion can continue, because now we've come to the point where your counter-arguments simply don't make any sense to me. What is the dragon going to do, pile all of its treasure into a sack, sling it over its shoulder, and start carrying it along with it to the bottom of a different swampy lake every day? 17,000gp is a lot of treasure to do that with.

Only a small part of a dragons hoard consist out of coins. It also has many gems and magical items, which are much easier to carry.
And dragons have big mouths to carry treasure in.
Alternativly, the dragon can hide the treasure.

The spellcraft DC is for knowing what spell was cast.

Is casted

It tells you absolutely nothing about where the druid is or what form he's taken.

It does, because the dragon sees the druid casting

And since the dragon wouldn't be near enough to hear any somatic components or see any verbal components (assuming there are any with Natural Spell), the DC would be considerably tougher than 18.

Read the feat again. there are V and S components. And they aren't hidden so even without a spellcraft check one can identify them as spellcasting.
Show me the rule which says otehrwise.
Also the dragon can see perfectly fine at 200 ft distance with its keen senses and high spot check.

Not true. Unless the animal is standing beside the dragon when he's spellcasting, of course. In which case, sure. At the range of Call Lightning Storm, though, it ain't going to happen.

Again, nothing says natural spell does hide spellcasting. So by the RAW you notice it when a wildshaped druid casts a spell as long as you can see him. (I am generous by requiering a spellcraft check, but by the RAW this isn't neccessary).

So, suddenly you use call lightning storm? And which 5th level spell is replaced by it? Tree stride, Wall of Thornes or Baleful polymorph? All of them are used in your plans, but the druid doesn't has that many 5th level spells availiable.

Also the druid has to see the dragon too. having a lower spot check and no keen senses the druid has to come close to the dragon. 320 ft at least with a +5 wis mod, maxed spot check, clear line of sight and average rolls.
Considering that the dragon can see 380 ft (assuming the druid is in a small form) without even rolling its unlikely that the dragons doesn't see the druid when casting a spell.

 

[Storyteller01]

So how about this??

Said druid finds the lair (keeping to Wild Shape small forms)


He cases said lair, probably over a period of several weeks (similar to humans leaving tents in a given area for several weeks, so that the animals will get used to the change in environmeny)

After finding all enterances/exits, he pulls this (if said dragon lairs underwater. According to most sources, they tend to because of their natural advantages):



Wall of Thorns all of the exits (use metamagic feats for time extention and the removal of verbal components [to remove the chance of being heard] if needed).

At one exit place four metal rods.

Then find dry ground and Call Lighting on the thing (using Natural Spell)!!!! Water that impure will carry one hell of a charge. You'll do mass damage before he can touch you. As a bonus, the beasty can't spot you until he gets topside. You should be running as soon as the wall starts to give way. Now you just look like any other other creatures running to get away.

 

[Storyteller01]

Survival as a Hide Skill.....

Maybe against animals senses (for hunting, blocking scents and such) but not in prolonged combat with an intelligent being. That would be a different set of skills and knowlegde (your actively thinking about what an intelligent creature would look for). I'd say the dragon gets a bonus if you only use Survival to hide a camp site. However, using the Hide skill in the wilderness would give a synergy bonus if you have Survival.

 

[Sejs]

1) The Hide skill covers hiding you, not your campsite. Unless you think it's reasonable to hide your campsite as a move action, modified by dexterity and subject to armor check penalty. Frankly, there are no official rules on hiding a campsite whatsoever. Personally, I think that a Survival check would be more in line, because using terrain and local features to conceal your camp seems to be a very wildernessy thing, and more of a mental task (wis) than a physical one (dex, acp). The point, ultimatly, is moot however - if the druid wants to, he can just sleep as a tree or shrub.

2) Resting in the lair undisturbed: not really. Depends on the particulars of the lair in question though. Underwater lair invites incursions by aquatic critters. Cave lairs just beg to have their entrances collapsed. All varies by situation, though.

3) Casted isn't a word. Anyway, as for the rule that says otherwise - that would be the "you must see or hear the spell's verbal or somatic components" part of the identify a spell being cast entry. At several hundred feet away, you arn't seeing some talon movements by a bird or hearing it croak out a chant. If he's able to see the druid I wouldn't say that it's totally unable to see that there's some movement going on (assuming no other mitigating factors like concealment or weather), but detail wouldn't fly - it's too far off. Heck, if the druid keeps switching forms over and over, the dragon will eventually start to get paranoid about most natural animal sounds. Is that a bullfrog or the druid? Birds chattering or the druid? Etc.

4) Dragon seeing the druid, Druid seeing the Dragon. Sorta wonky, because the druid doesn't do anything until he has spotted the dragon, and the dragon has nothing to react to until the druid has taken some action against it. The dragon is always forced into the reactionary position, thanks to wild shape. Basically the way it works is the druid finds the dragon, by hick or by trick, and then moves out to the maximum range possible at which he can still see the dragon and be within range of his spell du jour. He then gets concealment, and initiates his attack run after which the dragon gets to play Spot The Sniper and things progress from there.

 

[Derren]

Some people just don't get it that the dragon will see the druid casting.

1. The dragon can see much farther than the druid.
2. Natural spell doesn't hide verbal and somantic components of spellcasting.

So even if the druid casts his spell at the maximum distance possible for him, the dragon can see him casting a spell.
Natural spell doesn't hide spellcasting. Casting a spell isn't a single word and a quick motion, but speaking (or roaring) arcane formulas for 4 whole seconds while tracing lines with the hand (or claw).
Sure, that isn't suspicious to all, not even to people (or dragons) who are trained to recognice this (ranks in spellcraft). Animals do this all the time.

I'm tired repeating my points over and over again. The tread starter doesn't seem to follow this discussion anyway I'm out.
So go one houseruleing everything in favor of the druid and denying the dragon its natural abilities.

 

[Lord Pendragon]

I'm tired repeating my points over and over again. The tread starter doesn't seem to follow this discussion anyway I'm out.

lol. I was thinking the same thing after your last post. Except to you I would follow it up with "go on houseruling everything in favor of the dragon and denying the druid his natural abilities."

It's certainly been an...entertaining...discussion, I'll give it that!

 

[Sejs]

No, no we get that the dragon may be able to see the druid casting. Operative phrase: May be. As in not automatic.

OKay, so the operative distance that most examples are working with seems to be 200'. Fine. And the dragon has a +24 spot total. Guess what? The druid, wild shaped into a small size creature (+4 size bonus on hide) with the Camoflage spell running (+10 unnamed bonus on hide checks) standing 200' away (-10 to the dragon's spot check; would be -20 but keen senses halves the distance penalty) standing out in the open gives the dragon a dead even chance of not being able to see the druid. And that's without the druid going out of his way to find a point of concealment or cover to further assist him being hidden, which just like you pointed out, has been stated time and again.

But guess what? None of that matters at ALL because the dragon can only notice that something is wrong after the druid has begun casting his spell at which point there is nothing the dragon can do to stop it from completing.


In the words of Tyler Durden - "Good for you. Doesn't change a thing."


Edit/Additional Ranting:

So go one houseruleing everything in favor of the druid and denying the dragon its natural abilities.

No, see you don't get it. We arn't denying the dragon any of its natural abilities thru houseruling, we're making a point to not play to the dragon's strengths thru reasoned forethought. Let's go down the list, shall we?

Dragon's Natural Advantages and How We Are Bypassing Them:

*Advantage: High AC due to large natural armor bonus.
Bypass: Assault via magic, or by creatures that deal damage in ways that sidestep natural armor, eg grappling.

*Advantage: Amazingly fast flight speed.
Bypass: Restricted terrain that is too tight to allow a large size creature to fly in.

*Advantage: Highly damaging breath weapon.
Bypass: Engaging from beyond the breath weapon's maximum range.

*Advantage: Formidable melee ability; high strength and several natural weapons. Strong grappler.
Bypass: Avoid personal melee at all costs. If the dragon moves to close range, flee via Tree Stride.

*Advantage: High saves across the board. Noticable SR.
Bypass: Hit-and-Fade spell tactics over an extended period of time mean that eventually the dragon -will- fail a saving throw and SR check.

*Advantage: High HD means large skill totals for skills such as Spot.
Bypass: Stack advantageous modifiers in your favor before engaging in order to minimize the benefit of those skills. Factors such as distance, cover, terrain, etc.


Is this making sense yet? In the right kind of conflict the dragon would absolutly tear the druid appart without even blinking. We all know this. The whole point of this excercise was to find a way in which the druid could avoid a conflict that would favor the dragon in lieu of the kind of conflict that would favor him. And all it takes is some rudimentary tactical thinking: do not strike where the enemy is strong, strike where the enemy is weak. He who controls the earth can conquer heaven, ie the person who controls the parameters of a conflict can set it up so that said parameters heavily favor him being the victor.

 

[Derren]

Having to roll a one on a d20 is automatic for me.
So. The druid casts a spell. And then?
it can't be Baleful polymorph. That has a close range.
So its either Tree Stride, Wall of Thornes or Call Lightining.

Tree stride is purely defensive, that doesn't harm the dragon and when the dragon acts he can charge the druid.
Same for call lightning. While it does damage, casting the spell does nothing. The druid needs time to use it which he doesn't have.

Wall of thornes? Okay. And what then? Walls block the LoF and LoS. So the druid can do nothing when the Wall is standing.

And does the duid even see the dragon?
-20 range penalty and +4 because the dragon is large. so the druid needs a maxed spot skill to see the dragon automatically at 200 ft. if there are no obstacles between him and the dragon.
If the dragon is submerged in a lake, the spot check increases dramatically.

 

[Sejs]

And does the duid even see the dragon?

Yes, the druid does, primarily because the druid is the initiator. He has all the time he wants, can get closer than 200' if he so desires, take 20, you name it. Once he's spotted the dragon he can then move out to his engagement distance and things go from there. Once he's got sight of the dragon he no longer needs to make any spot checks - he knows where it is, and the dragon at this point has no motivation to do things like suddenly make a hide check out of nowhere.

Also of note, Spot and Listen are on the druid's class skill list. The druid's probably no slouch himself when it comes to perception skills. In my experience, druids tend to keep the following skills maxed if possible: Knowledge (Nature), Spellcraft, Concentration, Survival, Spot, Listen.