Identify

[mkletch]

The first type of DM has oodles of notes on everything in he campaign world, including magic items. This type of DM does not let the players know anything about their magic items except by the strict definition of the Identify and AD spells. This type of DM is authoritarian when it comes to metagaming, and doesn't let the players ever have the chance to fully know the properties of their magic items (unless the PCs create the items). Cursed items are a real pain for the players and the game bogs down during combats due to the DM fiddling with notes.

The other type of DM does not want to be bothered keeping track of the loot for the players. This DM shares the responsibility with the players because the sheer amount of work required. Cursed items never actually represent a danger, but combats never drag because the players all know what their stuff does. Metagaming is more of a problem, however, because magic items tend to be straight out of the DMG.

All in all, I prefer the second style of playing because I like it when players help out with DMing and take charge of their characters and the gaming world in general. My gaming group is comprised of adults, who are fully capable of separating in-game knowledge from player knowledge.

Just from the descriptions, one could tell that you preferred the second method. Look at it this way: a DM with notes, etc. is more consistent. Once you learn something, you can be certain that it will remain the same. In a free-for-all, the DM is usually too scatterbrained to even keep notes, even if he wanted to! That has been my experience. Although I DM via notes, I play either and don't mind, as long as everybody knows the changes from the core rules up front.

As for why I DM with notes and cut out metagaming, I want to build a world, something with detail and a life of its own. For random hackfest, I'll play a CRPG. However, I do let the players experiement with items. THe one guy just found a returning dagger, and discovered that by playing with it. I tend not to use flat-out cursed items, though items with many powers may have some drawbacks. In any case, the players were too paranoid (some are 15+ year gamers) to use items without knowing the whole story on their items, so they would sit in a sack until they could get back to a city.

I guess I originally responded wrong. I do modify identify a little - it reveals if there are additional powers to an item, not leave it up to guesswork. So if you identify a +1 wounding sword, you'll get "+1 with additional powers" for your result.

As for identify being too much work, how much work is it to write down:

dagger ??

Identify it, erase the "??" and fill in:

dagger +1, plus ??

Then later, adjust to:

dagger +1, returning

Wow, if that's too much work, maybe you should lie down and take a rest between typing each line of text in your caustic reply.

-Fletch!

 

[bret]

I use it as printed. It's fun to have a bit of trial and error for additional powers. Plus, how often do lower level characters find multiple use powers that aren't obvious? For instance, you find a magic sword, which is flaming. You cast ID, and find out it's +2, so you know you have a +2 flaming or flaming burst sowrd. Sure some stuff is not as obvious, but pleanty is. Also, once you know 1 power of something, if it's a standard item, you can often ID it just from knowledge (either player knowledge of the items in the book and/or knowledge arcane or bardic knowledge checks.) If you find boots that make you walk twice as fast, it's a good guess they can help you jump also, which you can then verify.

JoelF

The way I read the spell, this isn't quite right.

Flaming is a +1 modifier. If it is a +1 Flaming sword, the rules aren't clear if it will tell of the weapon enhancement or the Flaming property.

If it is a +2 or better weapon, all you would get is the Flaming property and the command word to light it up.

If it is a +1 Flaming Burst Weapon, all you would get is the +1 Enhancement bonus of the weapon. No command word, nothing about it's ability to flame. Going to be interesting sheathing the weapon if you killed the person you got it off, but didn't hear the command word they used to activate the item.


As for wands and such, the Identify spell will tell you exactly how many charges an item has.

I would have liked if it gave a little bit more information about items, but agree it shouldn't tell everything about an item. As it is, we still end up using it most of the time until someone in the group gets Analyze Dweomer. The AD can definately be worth the money, but often times it can be a real hassle trying to find a spellcaster of the required level.

 

[hammymchamham]

I just had it identify everything magical about the item, just makes it easier, so I don't have to keep rolling if its a flaming sword, or remember that that short sword they found 15 levels ago is a +1 defending vorpal keen holy flaming surestriking blah blah blah blah weapon

 

[Caliber]

I have identify identify all the powers of an item, becasue it's just that much easier for me.

Me too man. Me too.

 

[ConcreteBuddha]

Wow, if that's too much work, maybe you should lie down and take a rest between typing each line of text in your caustic reply.

Okay. I have been playing this game since I was twelve. As a player, the wonder of caring about the additional properties of magic items has worn off. As a DM, I'm not going to keep track of every magic item on every PC in the entire stinking game. I already do that for the NPCs (which outnumber the PCs a hundred fold.)

Caustic? I was being as equally critical of the Fly-By-The-Seat-Of-Your-Pants DM. Of course it would be better if the DM had a complete grasp of everything that happened in the campaign, and wrote it all down and cross-referenced each piece of information using an index. It would also be wonderful if my players jumped for joy whenever they received a mysterious new magic item. Then we wouldn't be tainted by CRPGs. Because obviously games like FF and Diablo have twisted what it truly means to be a RPer.

In fact, we should never play CRPGs. Ideas like automatic Identify spells that have no material components are warping the minds of the future generations of role-players. In my day, a gamer spent an hour in real-time pretending to cradle his newfound magical sword. We all looked on in silent awe while this bonding took place. A +1 longsword was so much more than just a measly 2315 gps: It was a life-altering experience. Whenever the DM deamed us worthy to know the inner secrets of an enchanted item, we wept for days afterwards. This responsibility is what kept us afloat amidst the turmoil of reality. This is the secret that each of us shared within our hearts. This was DnD.


Altering Identify is of the Devil! Amen!

 

[(Psi)SeveredHead]

I use Identify reveals most or all properties, depending on the item.

Some spellcasters hide some item properties from Identify, by casting a special version of Identify during the item creation process.

I also use Psionics are Different, so sometimes the "obviously magic sword" doesn't show up at all.

 

[Deadguy]

I have said that I use identify by the book. But I must add that I also have added a 3rd level spell object divination which works just like identify except that each casting will slowly work its way up through the item's powers. It means that if the PCs want to uncover the secrets of every magic item they find then they must accept some downtime or a high cost to get someone else to do it. Of course, for certain items a Bardic Lore roll can reveal as much as an analyze dweomer ever will. And sometimes they will have a good idea what the item is and the command words anyway, from information found at the same time (never forget that if they get the chance to see the NPC use the item before they prise it from his cold, dead hands then they may well have all the information they want!)

 

[mkletch]

Okay. I have been playing this game since I was twelve. As a player, the wonder of caring about the additional properties of magic items has worn off. As a DM, I'm not going to keep track of every magic item on every PC in the entire stinking game. I already do that for the NPCs (which outnumber the PCs a hundred fold.)

As soon as the wonder of magic is gone, your game loses something. We as a gaming group are working to bring it back, despite how it has become a commodity in first the Forgotten Realms (which we are trying to forget) and then 3E as a whole.

Caustic? I was being as equally critical of the Fly-By-The-Seat-Of-Your-Pants DM. Of course it would be better if the DM had a complete grasp of everything that happened in the campaign, and wrote it all down and cross-referenced each piece of information using an index. It would also be wonderful if my players jumped for joy whenever they received a mysterious new magic item. Then we wouldn't be tainted by CRPGs. Because obviously games like FF and Diablo have twisted what it truly means to be a RPer.

In fact, we should never play CRPGs. Ideas like automatic Identify spells that have no material components are warping the minds of the future generations of role-players. In my day, a gamer spent an hour in real-time pretending to cradle his newfound magical sword. We all looked on in silent awe while this bonding took place. A +1 longsword was so much more than just a measly 2315 gps: It was a life-altering experience. Whenever the DM deamed us worthy to know the inner secrets of an enchanted item, we wept for days afterwards. This responsibility is what kept us afloat amidst the turmoil of reality. This is the secret that each of us shared within our hearts. This was DnD.

I was expecting a caustic reply, and I have to admit that I still can't tell if you are serious or sarcastic. Your writing tone is ... inscrutable. But, I'll assume you're at least marginally serious, and continue.

If someone wants the responsibility of DMing, then they keep notes and such. That is just how every group I have ever played with (D&D or any other system) has handled it. The DM is not an authority figure, but he/she has much responsibility, to hold together the group, the characters, the campaign, the story and all of the little details. And details are extremely important. If you say "X" in a campaign, you don't know if any particular player will remember that four adventures later and want to deal with that detail. And to fail in that respect is to let down the players.

I get the impression that lots of DMs fill that role for the perceived power and control. They have NONE. THey have only responsibility, and if they fail, they will (or at least should) not have any players willing to waste their time with such silliness.

Over to CRPGs, you will find no greater supporter than I in the argument that they are a hateful contagion to pen-and-paper RPGs. Hey, I play my share of CRPGs, and even let their influence drain on my PnP RPG campaign for a while before realizing that something was missing from my game. When I went back and fixed it, I found that it was CRPGs in my case.

3E owes as much to Diablo, its sequels, and its clones as it does to previous editions of the game. It hurts to say it, but I really believe it to be true (whether intentional or not, and I suspect not). Seeing the popularity of these games, the designers of 3E had to slipstream a little, or lose even more market. Instead they gained market, but at what cost to future generations of gamers? The master is now learning from the student. It is not surprising, but it is disappointing. The only benefit of the magic item system in 3E is that it takes control from the DMs and gives it to the players where it belongs. I'm just thankful that, as a DM, I have a responsible and mature group of players, and that affords me my odd views on this matter.

Some spellcasters hide some item properties from Identify, by casting a special version of Identify during the item creation process.

I also use Psionics are Different, so sometimes the "obviously magic sword" doesn't show up at all.

The 'hide from identify' is a cool idea. I also use the psionics are different option, for a few items and lots of traps. I have a character in my campaign that has been walked around with a coold psionic-based bastard sword because they have not found an appropriate person to ID it.

-Fletch!

 

[WizarDru]

I have changed Identify to be a single hour to cast, not eight. I also reveal the full nature of the item, though not necessarily how many charges. My players are all 20+ veterans of gaming, we have families, and we don't have as much time to waste on trivial gaming tasks, such as the Identify game:

DM: "As the dragon falls, vanquished, you see his wondrous hoard before you. Amidst the coins and gems, you find a staff and sword."

PC: "Wow, Great! Umm, I cast detect magic. Are they powerful?"

DM:: "You think so. The staff has at least a power of abjuration, while the sword has an enchantment."

PC: "OK. Ummm. I pick up the sword and wave it around."

DM: "Gleaming in the light, it feels strong."

PC: "But nothing happens? Any command words on it?"

DM: "No."

PC: "Hmmm. Tap it on the floor, and yell ATTACK!"

DM: " Nothing happens."

PC: "I stick it in the brazier."

DM: " Nothing happens."

PC: "I touch the mage with it."

PC 2: "HEY!"

DM: "Nothing happens."

PC: "I lick it."

DM: (Sighs) "Nothing happens."

And so it goes. Two words: NOT FUN.

For custom items, sure...but for standard items, we just don't want the above scene happening every time the group finds a +1 arrow. YMMV.

DM:

 

[mkletch]

I have changed Identify to be a single hour to cast, not eight. I also reveal the full nature of the item, though not necessarily how many charges. My players are all 20+ veterans of gaming, we have families, and we don't have as much time to waste on trivial gaming tasks, such as the Identify game:

DM: "As the dragon falls, vanquished, you see his wondrous hoard before you. Amidst the coins and gems, you find a staff and sword."

[...]

DM: (Sighs) "Nothing happens."

And so it goes. Two words: NOT FUN.

For custom items, sure...but for standard items, we just don't want the above scene happening every time the group finds a +1 arrow. YMMV.

DM:

OK, that is just absurd. The reason there are spells is so that you don't go through this garbage. Read 3E identify. You do know the charges and the most basic power. Since 95%+ of all items have a single function, it does tell you the 'whole powers' of the item. The rare case of a multi-function or artifact item aren't covered by ID. You want a bookkeeping nightmare, have the DM track charges for every found item...

-Fletch!