Identifying "old school" adventure modules

[tvknight415]

I'd have to add to the list B2-Keep on the Borderlands. How many old-time gamers haven't cleared out those caverns (multiple times)? And no matter how many times I play it, "bree-yark" (or however it's spelled) still means "I surrender".

 

[Orius]

Tomb of Horrors. Nothing says old school like this death trap. It's also the only one on this list I'm actually familiar with, so the others I have to go by reputation.

White Plume Mountain, Slave Pits of the Undercity (and the rest of A series), Hidden Shrine of Tamoachan, Steading of the Hill Giant Chief (and the rest of G series), Expedition to the Barrier Peaks, Lost Caverns of Tsojcanth, Villange of Hommlet (and the whole ToEE), and Queen of the Demonweb Pits also got my vote. I also add that you forgot to mention Keep on the Borderlands and the U series.

Dragons of Despair and the rest of Dragonlance and Ravenloft I would not consider old-school. They mark the beginning of the story-based adventures that flourished under late 1e and early 2e.

I'm not familiar enough with the others to venture an honest opinion.

 

[Bullgrit]

I also add that you forgot to mention Keep on the Borderlands and the U series.

First, this list is not exhaustive; I merely intended it to be representative. Second, Keep on the Borderlands is not AD&D1, it is BD&D. Third, the U series is represented with Sinister Secret of Saltmarsh.

Bullgrit

 

[roguerouge]

I didn't vote for Sinister Secret, Bone Hill, Ravenloft, Dungeonland, or Barrier Peaks because, in my opinion, all were about expanding beyond the traditional old school of its time, through the creation of sandboxes, literary adaptation, or adding sci-fi.

 

[Bullgrit]

With 53 votes counted, here are the modules that scored 80% or better on the “old school” chart:

White Plume Mountain
Tomb of Horrors (100%)
Slave Pits of the Undercity
Hidden Shrine of Tamoachan
Ghost Tower of Inverness
Steading of the Hill Giant Chief
Expedition to Barrier Peaks
Lost Caverns of Tsojcanth
Village of Hommlet
Queen of the Demonweb Pits

Can we all agree that 80% (8 in 10 gamers here) agreement is enough?

Looking over the choices (for and not for), I see some interesting things. But first, I’m going to play sort of devil’s advocate, here, because I think it’ll be funny. (You may not agree with my humor.)

***Devil’s Advocate / Snark Mode On***

Steading of the Hill Giant Chief is old school? It’s full of unnecessary fluff about this giant being an emissary, that giant married to the other giant, this monster is a pet, and so on. I don’t care about the giants’ politics or family relationships, the PCs are just gonna kill ‘em all anyway. What a bunch of wasted info. And there’s a rebellion going on in the steading dungeon? So, what, are the PCs supposed to take sides and maybe negotiate a peace treaty? That ain’t old school dungeon crawlin’. Ridiculous waste of text explaining all of that. A good old school DM doesn’t need all that fluff. If for some strange reason the PCs need to know why there’s a particular monster in the room next to the chief’s, then a competent old school DM can make it up on the spot. This module is definitely new school with all its background fluff and motivational explanations for the monsters.

Expedition to Barrier Peaks is sci-fi. Ray guns, grenades, powered armor -- this has nothing to do with D&D. This will ruin a normal, old school D&D campaign. This module was written by someone who wanted to play Star Trek but had to trick his Players into showing up for the game. This ain’t old school; it ain’t even D&D.

Queen of the Demonweb Pits is freakin’ steam punk! STEAM PUNK! D&D has jumped the shark.

***Devil’s Advocate / Snark Mode Off***

Now, for serious analysis.

The 80% choices and their publication dates:
White Plume Mountain -- 1979
Tomb of Horrors -- 1978
Slave Pits of the Undercity -- 1980
Hidden Shrine of Tamoachan -- 1980
Ghost Tower of Inverness – 1980
Steading of the Hill Giant Chief -- 1978
Expedition to Barrier Peaks -- 1980
Lost Caverns of Tsojcanth -- 1982
Village of Hommlet – 1979
Queen of the Demonweb Pits – 1980

1978 to 1980 with one outlier in 1982.

No module published between 1978 and 1980 failed to get 80%. Only 1 of 10 after 1980 got 80%.

In looking at aspects other than the publication dates of the 80% choices, I do see a pattern. But seeing the pattern makes me wonder:

If Village of Hommlet (90%) is old school, why not Secret of Bone Hill (62%)? Both modules contain detailed descriptions of small towns with an outpost of evil nearby to explore. In my eyes, they are *very* similar. Am I wrong? How about Sinister Secret of Saltmarsh (56%)?

If White Plume Mountain (94%) is old school, why not Pharoah (28%)? Both dungeons are essentially a collection of mix and match monsters and traps with no ecological sense. The plots are both basically go in and retrieve the McGuffin. Pharoah is a bigger module – WPM is only 16 pages – with more than just a single dungeon crawl, so does this have an effect on the choice?

What do you see as the common bonds between the modules that got 80% “old school”? What happened around 1981 that changed module design to apparently abandon “old school” style?

And to go back to my devil’s advocate/snark comments for a serious thought: I remember back in the day how some people considered Barrier Peaks and Demonweb as abominations in D&D. Some said space ships and steam technology had no place in D&D; some people hated those modules with a passion. But here they score 90% and 83% “old school”.

Bullgrit

 

[billd91]

Who ever said that old school had to be devoid of reasons for monsters to be where they are? Oddly sprinkled about monsters may be one factor seen in a lot of old school adventures, but old school adventures could make sense too.

For what it's worth, I didn't vote for the Expedition to the Barrier Peaks as old school. That said, even back in the 1e DMG and in old magazines, you did see some genre crossing ideas come up. Anybody remember the old Strategic Review article "Sturmgeschutz and Sorcery, or How Effective is my Panzerfaust Against a Troll, Heinz?"

I didn't vote for Pharaoh because of the way it fits into a more scripted plot with its sequels, but it was a close decision.

 

[Melan]

Genre-crossing not old-school? I beg your pardon:
OD&D Vol 2., Monsters&Treasures (1974): mentions "robots, golems and androids" (no stats, though)
OD&D Supplement II: Blackmoor (1975): the entire Temple of the Frog module
Empire of the Petal Throne (?1976?): science-fiction background, dungeons and monsters in abundance
City State of the Invincible Overlord (?1976?): the fallen god EMIG-XXI and its fabled arm named Autocannon, several other bits like walkie-talkies in the Temple of Morg
Wilderlands of High Fantasy et al (1977): too numerous to recount; fallen antigrav sled near Zothay an iconic example
The First Fantasy Campaign (1977): the Egg of Coot, the City of the Gods and so forth
The Dungeoneer fanzine (ca. 1977): the extensive Realm of the Slime God adventure, featuring superintelligent giant blobs and spaceships in a fantasy world

Hmmmm. May need to readjust those spectacles there.

 

[Hussar]

I would hazard a guess that modules like Secret of Saltmarsh didn't get the vote because it's not as commonly played. Same with Pharoah. It's just a guess, but, I don't see an awful lot of gamers of the day reminiscing about those modules, while stuff like Hommlet and the G series are rhapsodized fairly regularly.

But, I do agree with Melan that genre-bending was most certainly a feature of old-school. Be it the cannon in A1 or the spinning elevator in The Lost City, genre bending is a fairly healthy tradition of older modules.

One I wish we would see more of.

 

[Bullgrit]

Genre-crossing not old-school? I beg your pardon:

I'm just relating what I heard some other people back in the day say about it. Though I never played either of them, I did read them (I own both from way back), and I thought Barrier Peaks and Demonweb were both cool modules.

But I heard a few complaints about both of them for their elements outside sword and sorcery in D&D way back before D&D3 was even announced as coming soon. At the time, I got the feeling the complainers would not consider those two modules as true "old school".

For myself, of the modules in the poll, I voted for all as "old school" except Dragons of Despair.

Bullgrit

Edit: For what it's worth:

"...I have received far too many comments panning the Q1 module ..."
-- E. Gary Gygax
http://www.enworld.org/forum/archive-threads/171753-gary-gygax-q-part-xii-4.html#post3023213

"...The Demonweb Pits were indeed envisioned as mze like, but there were to be no machines therein...."
-- E. Gary Gygax
http://www.enworld.org/forum/archive-threads/171753-gary-gygax-q-part-xii-4.html#post3024765

"the maze was fine, but all the rest, expecially the mechanical stuff, was not at all what I planned...."
-- E. Gary Gygax
http://www.enworld.org/forum/archive-threads/171753-gary-gygax-q-part-xii-6.html#post3029180

Maybe I'm reading too much into it, but it seems that EGG also disliked the steam punk aspect of Q1.

Edit more:
"The final portal is significantly different; this is the one that leads to the Spider Ship of Lolth. Yes, you read that right, a Spider Ship. If the idea of science fiction intervening into your fantasy universe puts you on edge, you're not going to be happy at all. I didn't like it, but some people from all accounts completely hate this."
http://www.rpg.net/reviews/archive/13/13662.phtml

"So, for example, Lolth's having a giant, steam-powered, mechanical spider ship never bothered me the way it bothered many people."
http://grognardia.blogspot.com/2009/02/retrospective-queen-of-demonweb-pits.html

"A giant mechanical spider is the best they can come up with for this cosmic place? Sounds more like a modern Hollywood take on things.

Maybe having had it been a gigantic living spider I would be "now you are talking!" But what, the Godly realms have all this damn steam punk stuff, then? Or Lolth is the only being blessed with robotic technology? Jeez..."
http://grognardia.blogspot.com/2009/02/retrospective-queen-of-demonweb-pits.html

 

[rogueattorney]

But I heard a few complaints about both of them for their elements outside sword and sorcery in D&D way back before D&D3 was even announced as coming soon.

Those complainers, then, had no clue about sword and sorcery literature.

Again, I believe this is a case where there's a "mid-school."

70's and early 80's D&D was very much in the weird fantasy tradition of Moorcock, Leiber, Vance, Lovecraft, and Howard, all of whom, at various times mixed their fantasy with sci-fi and horror.

From the mid-80's into the 90's, D&D became very much vanilla fantasy in the epic Middle-Earth imitators vein that pretty well overwhelmed fantasy literature for about 20 years. Some 2e campaign settings focused on specifc, less-generic genres, but these were compartmentalized and separate from "regular" D&D. There wasn't the cross genre pollination. Most of the complaints I've heard about S3 comes from people who prefer the fantasy of this era and, while not perhaps "new school," certainly aren't "old school."