Identifying Potions

[Menexenus]

The wording in the SRD about the mechanics of Identifying a magic item are sort of vague. I could use everyone's help with a ruling that my players will not feel is arbitrary.

Here's my problem: the party found a bunch of opaque stoppered bottles that radiated magic (under Detect Magic), so they scooped them all up under the false assumption that the bottles were merely potions. Later, one of the party's spell casters cast Identify on the bottle. What I need to know is this: if he thought it was a potion, would he have had to open the bottle to identify its contents.

Here's why it matters. It turns out that these magical bottles are actually traps containing monsters that will immediately attack the party if opened. Once the player whose character was identifying the bottles got wise to the fact that something bad was about to happen to him, he argued that someone shouldn't have to open a bottle to identify a potion. He reasons that the bottle is part of the potion.

I was thinking about it a different way. You couldn't identify a sword without drawing it from its scabbard. You need to examine the magic item for tell-tale markings (etc.) that would aid one in discerning its function. Similarly, you would at least need to see the liquid in the bottle in order to observe tell-tale colors, odors, viscosities, etc. that would aid one in identifying the potion's function.

We decided to take our disagreement to ENWorld sort of as an appeals process. You all represent a "higher authority" to our group. So choose wisely: does the identifier of a potion routinely open the bottle to identify it, or is opening the bottle and observing the liquid inside completely unnecessary when identifying a potion.

Thanks in advance!

 

[Klaus]

The wording in the SRD about the mechanics of Identifying a magic item are sort of vague. I could use everyone's help with a ruling that my players will not feel is arbitrary.

Here's my problem: the party found a bunch of opaque stoppered bottles that radiated magic (under Detect Magic), so they scooped them all up under the false assumption that the bottles were merely potions. Later, one of the party's spell casters cast Identify on the bottle. What I need to know is this: if he thought it was a potion, would he have had to open the bottle to identify its contents.

Here's why it matters. It turns out that these magical bottles are actually traps containing monsters that will immediately attack the party if opened. Once the player whose character was identifying the bottles got wise to the fact that something bad was about to happen to him, he argued that someone shouldn't have to open a bottle to identify a potion. He reasons that the bottle is part of the potion.

I was thinking about it a different way. You couldn't identify a sword without drawing it from its scabbard. You need to examine the magic item for tell-tale markings (etc.) that would aid one in discerning its function. Similarly, you would at least need to see the liquid in the bottle in order to observe tell-tale colors, odors, viscosities, etc. that would aid one in identifying the potion's function.

We decided to take our disagreement to ENWorld sort of as an appeals process. You all represent a "higher authority" to our group. So choose wisely: does the identifier of a potion routinely open the bottle to identify it, or is opening the bottle and observing the liquid inside completely unnecessary when identifying a potion.

Thanks in advance!

If the bottles are containment devices, similar to an Efreeti Bootle, the wizard would detect the auras as described for Efreeti Bottle (iirc, Conjuration?). Also, the bottled will probably have runes and such in them, since *they* are the enchanted items.

In the end, you could ask for a Knowledge (arcana) or Spellcraft check to determine f the players notice anything amiss with the vials.

 

[roguerouge]

First of all, a spellcraft check to identify a unique or strange magical effect is DC 30, as opposed to identifying a potion, which is DC 25. (Why the heck is he using a spell with a 100 gp component to identify potions?! What is he, made of money?) A reasonable compromise is to have that spellcraft check determine whether he notices anything amiss before removing the stopper to the bottle. If he was using spellcraft to i.d. the potions or a sword, extensive handling would be entailed.

Second, one of the reasons you use identify is to avoid curses. No, you don't have to take the sword out of the scabbard or even touch the sword hilt with bare hands in using this spell. (You drink a concoction, in fact.) The reason is that some swords refuse to be sheathed due to their curses. Having to handle the item in question undermines one the protective values of the spell.

 

[Menexenus]

(Why the heck is he using a spell with a 100 gp component to identify potions?! What is he, made of money?)

Yeah, we've had a house rule for a long time that makes Identifying in 3rd edition much more like it was in 2nd edition. Namely, we allow the caster to identify one item *per caster level*. Of course, that's offset by the fact that it still takes 8 hours to cast.

We like the house rule because A) it makes it much more cost effective for the players to find out what their magical loot does, and B) I as a DM don't have to worry quite so much about what has been identified and what hasn't.

I'm not saying it's balanced or that anyone else should adopt it. But we have been using it for quite a while and we're happy with it. FYI.

Also, thanks for your points and suggestions. They have definitely given me food for thought.

 

[KarinsDad]

Range: Touch

Targets: One touched object

Duration: Instantaneous

Saving Throw: None

Spell Resistance: No
The spell determines all magic properties of a single magic item, including how to activate those functions (if appropriate), and how many charges are left (if any).

A potion is a magic liquid that produces its effect when imbibed.

I'd have to say that you are correct.

The item only has to be touched with Identify, but the magic item in this case is the liquid, not the container. So, a player trying to use Identify for a Potion would by definition, open the bottle and touch the liquid.

Additionally, if one rules in favor of your players, that means that the DM is not able to create the type of trap that you created and have any reasonable chance of it actually going off merely because of the fact that Identify would always be used (as defined by your house rules).

The way to avoid this problem is to use Search, or Augury, or Analyze Dweomer, or Find Traps, not Identify.

Second, one of the reasons you use identify is to avoid curses. No, you don't have to take the sword out of the scabbard or even touch the sword hilt with bare hands in using this spell. (You drink a concoction, in fact.) The reason is that some swords refuse to be sheathed due to their curses. Having to handle the item in question undermines one the protective values of the spell.

This is not correct. The item does have to be touched with Identify.

 

[Klaus]

But with Detect Magic, the wizard would know that the container, not the content, is what's magical. And if he casts a costly spell like Identify, wouldn't he know the powers of the bottle as soon as he picked it up to open it?

 

[Haffrung Helleyes]

This is why you should always put a permanent Nystul's Undetectable Aura on cursed items that you create, Evil Wizards!

Ken

 

[roguerouge]

I'd have to say that you are correct.

The item only has to be touched with Identify, but the magic item in this case is the liquid, not the container. So, a player trying to use Identify for a Potion would by definition, open the bottle and touch the liquid.

This is not correct. The item does have to be touched with Identify.

I stand corrected. Good show.

 

[UltimaGabe]

Second, one of the reasons you use identify is to avoid curses. No, you don't have to take the sword out of the scabbard or even touch the sword hilt with bare hands in using this spell. (You drink a concoction, in fact.) The reason is that some swords refuse to be sheathed due to their curses. Having to handle the item in question undermines one the protective values of the spell.

If Identify is all you're using to check for curses, I'm afraid you're going to be a very cursed individual. A 20th-level caster casting Identify on a cursed item has an 80% chance to NOT notice the curse. (I've been looking in the SRD for the relevant passage, and I don't think it's there. And I don't have my DMG handy. But it's in the Cursed Item section of the DMG, in the section about selling Cursed Items. A caster has a 1% chance per caster level of noticing a curse- otherwise, it detects exactly as the item it's appearing as.) So that's not a very good idea if all you've got is identify. Analyze Dweomer and Legend Lore are much better for noticing Curses, and are much more in line with their power. After all, who cares about Cursed Items if all you need to notice them is a 1st-level spell?

 

[akbearfoot]

a -potion- IS an object....so touching the bottle should be just fine to identify it if hes using the identify spell.


Also...potions are usually itty bitty things, while every monster summoning type items I've ever seen have been more like stoppered beakers, or flasks which are considerably larger than regular potion bottles.

Also, any magic involved in creating such a device that could trap a creature SHOULD radiate fairly powerful magic, which should have been apparent when they first cast detect magic. If it's just a magic bottle then I'd say concentrating on the detect magic would reveal a magic container, without magical contents.

Then there's the tactile question...are the vials actually filled with liquid that sloshed around when they handled them....or did they feel empty.


I think just saying that the bottles are -cursed items- is weak at best since cursed items can't be created by choice....otherwise warforged everywhere would rejoice that they could have dust of sneezing and choking mass produced and go dragon killing with it. How on earth did someone end up with presumably several identical bottles that all ended up with the same curse?


All the arguments abotu nystulsmagic aura and augury etc...may be right as far as being other effective ways to obtain/deny information...but really all a trap of this sort will do is make the players eternally paranoid.

I played a cleric once that the DM tried to have assassinated once during a business deal....for the rest of his life, he cast augury before doing business with anyone, he cast detect magic, and purify food and drink every time he had a meal, and cast detect poison before handling anything that wasn't already in the party's posession....its like putting traps in random places in dungeons...once you do it once, the party always takes 20 on every square and it bogs down game play immensely.