Identifying Potions

[KarinsDad]

It all depends on how the "trap" was designed.

...

What was the caster level used to trap the creatures? - this one can (and should be) very important. Brew potion only allows spells fo 3rd level or lower to be made into a potion.

...

So a well done Detect Magic should work to give the caster an idea that something is wrong here.

If we assume that all casters casting Detect Magic know that Brew Potion is limited to 3rd level spells (as per the main leg of your argument here), then we also have to assume that the caster who crafted the item also knew this.

Hence, he might try to hide this fact from a Detect Magic spell. There are several different ways to do this, but the fact remains that he does not even have to do it.

He could make it look like an Elixer. Elixers are not potions, they are Wondrous Items which can theoretically have any spell level.

Since any caster would know that a Potion has a maximum of Spell Level 3, any caster would also know that a bottle could contain an Elixer and that an Elixer could have any aura strength. By your definition here of what is in the core books.

The item could be cursed. Cursed items often show up different auras then what they actually should be.

There are a lot of explanations for why this works, least of all is that magic outside that of the normal PC magic can be anything in a game. If the DM wants a Temple that flies, no problem. If the DM wants trapped magic bottles that have monsters appear when opened, no problem. I do not see how the rules explicitly prevent it or how the rules explicitly indicate that Detect Magic or Identify are spells would automatically and definitively bypass the magical trap.

Without explicit rules support for your position (which so far, caster level and auras do not support), it appears that the OP is totally fine with his interpretation of what could happen.


Besides, what fun are magical traps that can be easily detected by "standard magic item identification operating procedures"? Why even introduce such an item to a game? What kind of challenge is that? It's not as if the players were suspicious before they tried to Identify the items and cast Auguries or anything to investigate it. They just did job as usual and found something unusual.

Isn't that part of the fun?

 

[irdeggman]

Without explicit rules support for your position (which so far, caster level and auras do not support), it appears that the OP is totally fine with his interpretation of what could happen.

What do you mean my arguements are not supported? They very much are - in fact you had to go to an entirely different magic item to bypass it (wondrous item instead of potion).


Now for the other factor - how many auras are present?

Each spell in effect has one, each creature summoned has a summoning spell associated with them - and that spell in no way allows for "trapping" inside a bottle.

So if a potion (or an elixer) radiates more than 1 aura that is a cue to the caster of the Detect Magic spell that something is amiss. {Note I never said that he "knew" what was wrong or going on only that he had a clue that something more than meets the eye is present. I presented a way to get a quick idea if something is going on or not without having to use the "expensive" identify spell, which should require "touching" the object being identified}.

Also using Detect Magic would have reasonably allowed for a subsequent use of trap finding by the party rogue to determine (or perhaps disable) the trap. Per the OP this was a trap so there should be some method that it can be found and disabled, reasonably.

 

[irdeggman]

The item could be cursed. Cursed items often show up different auras then what they actually should be.

Where is this from?

The only thing I can find is how identify only has a 1%/level chance of working. Nothing on how Detect magic won't detect the actual magic aura of the spells used.

There are a lot of explanations for why this works, least of all is that magic outside that of the normal PC magic can be anything in a game. If the DM wants a Temple that flies, no problem. If the DM wants trapped magic bottles that have monsters appear when opened, no problem. I do not see how the rules explicitly prevent it or how the rules explicitly indicate that Detect Magic or Identify are spells would automatically and definitively bypass the magical trap.

Besides, what fun are magical traps that can be easily detected by "standard magic item identification operating procedures"? Why even introduce such an item to a game? What kind of challenge is that? It's not as if the players were suspicious before they tried to Identify the items and cast Auguries or anything to investigate it. They just did job as usual and found something unusual.

Isn't that part of the fun?

Well magical traps can be easily detectd via Detect Magic (it is in the traps section) - but they only detect the presence (and location) of the aura, not what the trap is.

I never, never said that Detect Magic would tell what the item was - only that it would give the caster an idea that something was amiss.

Then other means could be used - like trapfinding.

If it is routine to provide magical traps that can not be found (or disabled) then that is not a game I would ever want to play in - since the DM is obviously out to collect charaacter sheets.

All traps have a means of identifying them and disabling them (that is the entire nature and design of the system) - the only factor is using the "proper tools" to accomplish that task. And by tools I mean to include skills and spells not just physical trap finding tools.

 

[KarinsDad]

Where is this from?

The only thing I can find is how identify only has a 1%/level chance of working. Nothing on how Detect magic won't detect the actual magic aura of the spells used.

It's in the Curse section under Opposite Effect and Completely Different Effect.

As an example, a Scarab of Death uses the Abjuration school, even though it is not Abjuration. More like Necromancy. Armor of Rage is Necromancy when it should be Enchantment/Abjuration. Cloak of Poisonness is Abjuration when it should be Necromancy.

Many cursed items show up as a beneficial school of magic when in reality, they do something that corresponds to a different school of magic. If this did not happen, a simple Detect Magic would often make players wary of cursed items before they actually use them (and partially defeat the point of cursed items in the game).

Well magical traps can be easily detectd via Detect Magic (it is in the traps section) - but they only detect the presence (and location) of the aura, not what the trap is.

Or that it is even a trap.

All traps have a means of identifying them and disabling them (that is the entire nature and design of the system) - the only factor is using the "proper tools" to accomplish that task. And by tools I mean to include skills and spells not just physical trap finding tools.

Precisely. One has to use the proper tools. The OP defined these as magical traps, hence, trap sensing tools should be used. Identify is not one of those tools. And Detect Magic merely detects magical auras, not the properties of those auras (beyond location, strength and school of magic).

 

[irdeggman]

It's in the Curse section under Opposite Effect and Completely Different Effect.

As an example, a Scarab of Death uses the Abjuration school, even though it is not Abjuration. More like Necromancy. Armor of Rage is Necromancy when it should be Enchantment/Abjuration. Cloak of Poisonness is Abjuration when it should be Necromancy.

Many cursed items show up as a beneficial school of magic when in reality, they do something that corresponds to a different school of magic. If this did not happen, a simple Detect Magic would often make players wary of cursed items before they actually use them (and partially defeat the point of cursed items in the game).

But they radiate magic according to the spells/properties used to create them. Not something else. Saying the effect is like some thing else has no real bearing on the use of Detect Magic in this case.

Precisely. One has to use the proper tools. The OP defined these as magical traps, hence, trap sensing tools should be used. Identify is not one of those tools. And Detect Magic merely detects magical auras, not the properties of those auras (beyond location, strength and school of magic).

And Detect Magic spell is listed a means for determing a trap is present, just not exactly what the trap is. That was all I was getting at. Telling me that my methodolgy is wrong and can be bypassed has nothing whatsoever to do with the feasability of such a system, special precasutions (and spells) not withstanding.

I have not stated that using Identify is the proper "tool" to use here, I only listed a relatively common tool available that could be used effectively at least most of the time.

Somehow I think that the spells involved in creating this "trap" were of substantial level - most likely above those of the characters they are being used against. Otherwise why not use the spell Analyze Dweomer which is far superior to Identify (also it does not require "touching" only "sight".

 

[KarinsDad]

But they radiate magic according to the spells/properties used to create them. Not something else. Saying the effect is like some thing else has no real bearing on the use of Detect Magic in this case.

Bestow Curse is used to craft every cursed item listed. Bestow Curse is Necromancy, but the auras of the items listed are not always Necromancy. I do not think this supports your interpretation on what spells were used to craft the items because only Bestow Curse was used.


Even in the case of accidental curse, I understand what you are saying here and could even buy into your argument, but I have an issue with it. How can Enhancement magic perform Necromancy? How can Divination magic perform Abjuration?

Allowing this to be the case implies that any school of magic can actually do anything which is not quite what the game rules indicate.

I prefer an interpretation that cursed magic is distorted, including its aura. Not that its aura is intact, but the rest of the magic of it is distorted which is what you appear to be claiming. The magic is changed. Not, some portions of the magic are changed, but others are not. YMMV.

But, both your interpretation and mine here are merely interpretations. Since they are not actually called out in the rules, the OP's items could be cursed items since the rules do not prevent them from being so.

And Detect Magic spell is listed a means for determing a trap is present, just not exactly what the trap is.

Where do the rules state this?

Detect Magic detects magical auras. It does not detect traps. Sure, you can see that there is magic there, but how does Detect Magic determine a trap is present? It might not be a trap, but other magic. I could find no such rule in the Trap section or the Detect Magic spell or the general spell section. Detect Magic must be used with other means to actually detect it is a trap.

Players can assume a magical aura is a trap, but Detect Magic does not tell them this.

That was all I was getting at. Telling me that my methodolgy is wrong and can be bypassed has nothing whatsoever to do with the feasability of such a system, special precasutions (and spells) not withstanding.

Where did I state that your methodology is wrong?

I merely stated that Detect Magic and Identify could not be used as written to explicilty detect magical traps.

I also stated that if one assumes PCs have knowledge of level limits on Potions, that they should also have knowledge of Elixers not having level limits.

I have not stated that using Identify is the proper "tool" to use here, I only listed a relatively common tool available that could be used effectively at least most of the time.

Somehow I think that the spells involved in creating this "trap" were of substantial level - most likely above those of the characters they are being used against. Otherwise why not use the spell Analyze Dweomer which is far superior to Identify (also it does not require "touching" only "sight".

Maybe because the PCs do not have access to Analyze Dweomer?


I don't see where you are getting that this has to be a high level effect. Summon Monster I can be used to summon a monster and could make a very low level CR 1 trap. One only has to go to Summon Monster II to get multiple monsters. A multi-monster trap can be created as early as level 3 (Summon Monster II and Craft Wondrous Item).

 

[Kraydak]

As has been stated earlier in the thread, Detect Magic would indicate that these were magical bottles, not non-magical bottles containing magical liquids. The only reason someone doing ID activities would open the bottles before IDing the bottles proper is if someone (maliciously) told them that they were potions and the IDer decided not to cast his own Detect Magic. This feels like a case of mistaken DM description, and is a good retcon candidate. Players should not suffer if they take action based on mistaken descriptions.

Normally, talking about potions as "magical vials" is an acceptable short-hand. That isn't the case here. *shrug* No biggie unless people insist on making it one.

 

[KarinsDad]

As has been stated earlier in the thread, Detect Magic would indicate that these were magical bottles, not non-magical bottles containing magical liquids.

So based on this, are you claiming that Detect Magic would show a normal potion bottle as being non-magical bottles containing magical liquids? When the caster casts Detect Magic, he definitively knows this?

 

[irdeggman]

So based on this, are you claiming that Detect Magic would show a normal potion bottle as being non-magical bottles containing magical liquids? When the caster casts Detect Magic, he definitively knows this?

Are they separate "items"?

If so then the answer must be yes since, as I quoted before,

3rd Round: The strength and location of each aura. If the items or creatures bearing the auras are in line of sight, you can make Spellcraft skill checks to determine the school of magic involved in each. (Make one check per aura; DC 15 + spell level, or 15 + half caster level for a nonspell effect.)

Magical areas, multiple types of magic, or strong local magical emanations may distort or conceal weaker auras

Now if they are not separate items a simple Identify should work since touching the bottle is the same as touching the liquid.

 

[KarinsDad]

Are they separate "items"?

If so then the answer must be yes since, as I quoted before,

So, this separate items interpretation then indicates that Potions cannot have their School of Magic identified with Detect Magic unless the vials are made of glass.

Hmmm. Interesting.