D&D 4E If 4e went in this direction...


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Herschel

Adventurer
Interesting premise. I liked the start, but once you hit "multiclassing" you lost my "support"(?). Whil ethere were a couple of loopholes (The Tempest one, applying bonuses to all instead of just class-based abilities/powers) a little errata cleaned them up. By the time you got to the "half" racial templates, you hit on something I absolutely detested about 3E and about half-orcs from forever. We got Dragonborn and Tieflings from those God-awful templates in 3E, and four (six) "half" races is WAY too many for my tastes. I'd have been fine with Half Elves and leave it at that.

Half-Dwarves and Half-Giants sort of work in Dark Sun because the joint is twisted, but that didn't make me like them any more.
 

fjw70

Adventurer
I really like the themes idea that was presented in DS and I hope WotC expands on the idea, particularly for multiclassing. As for the 4e multiclassing system it is the worst MC system for D&D to date, except for all the others. :)

I like the multiclassing in 4e better than what has come before but it can still be better.

I am not sure what this discussion of themes has to do with Essentials. The goals of the two seem completely different (Essentials offerring a new entry point into the game and themes expanding the game).

Also, what math fix could you do through themes?
 

Erudite Frog

First Post
I just drafted an article on game design in relation to character themes. In it, I explain my reasoning on how the game could have corrected any math issues, maintained support for legacy 4e classes, and introduce new ones (i.e. Essentials) instead.

Loremaster - Game Design: Foundational Layers for 4e

Super article, Matt. I could see this working really well. Applying a "template" type to different parts of dnd would be cool and a better way to implement changes. Ill try to post a reply when I get time. I think your on to something at least.
 

Aegeri

First Post
I am one of the biggest fans of themes in 4E that you will find and I am amazed at the fact Wizards has done nothing to introduce them into the wider game yet.
 

Matt James

Game Developer
As I explain in the article, I think it could do wonders for many of the sub-systems of the game--without compromising game system integrity. Then, players new and old can rejoice.
 

Wrox

First Post
Of course I like the article Matt.

Instead of implementing vampires as a class :confused: WotC should have used themes. Same for revenant. Revanant isn't a proper race. It's an undead theme that should have been applied to any other race.
 

Riastlin

First Post
I will eventually end up getting the DS campaign guide simply for the themes in it. I agree that themes are an excellent addition to the game and a great way for making different characters stand out from each other. (i.e. a great way to make two different two handed weapon fighters feel different from one another).

I agree that I am not certain how themes could have helped with the math fix, so I would be interested to hear your thoughts on that. Not saying it isn't true, just that it isn't readily apparent to my overly tired brain (stupid 12 hour days).

As for multiclassing, I really like your idea of themed multiclassing. Multiclassing in 4ed is just . . . bleh. I suppose its pretty cool for bards, but even then the feat Bard of All Trades took away most of the biggest benefits of multi-classing.

In sum, I personally am a big fan of customization and I think that themes potentially provide a great method of achieving customization without really adding to bloat. More classes does not per se equate to customization. More feats doesn't either, especially since there are so many "sub par" feats out there and the sub par feats tend to be the ones that best exemplify customization ("I'm really knowledgeable at History" frex). Themes allow us to customize, to create different flavors, and to do so without really adding very many rules to the game.

The added rules I think is the biggest problem with new classes in particular. One of my players just rolled up a Sentinel for his 11th level character that was being added to the game after another player had to drop. Unfortunately, he didn't have the actual book and didn't think to read the class description in the CB all that carefully. At the first session he was looking at his power cards and pulled out the "Combined Attack" card which is an encounter but showed four little check boxes on the bottom. Unfortunately I was not familiar with the Sentinel either in part because I was not entirely certain what class he was playing until the night before. We were confused by the card and assumed it was a CB "bug", and so ruled it could only be used once. Of course, I also was not aware at the time that he only had one at-will (which knowledge may have lead me to a different conclusion).

Fortunately, after that first session we both looked it up and realized that yes, he did indeed get 4 uses of it at 11th level, but the point is that its almost impossible to keep up with all of the rules when they keep pumping out more. I consider myself fairly knowledgeable about the rules, but I don't have time to scour the rule books cover to cover and memorize every possible interaction with every possible class etc. I try to familiarize myself with those rules that I know will come into play in the next session or two, but you cannot always predict everything that will happen in a given session. Its this bloat of rules that leads so many DMs to restrict sources, which then often leads to player discontent because they cannot play the character that they want to play.
 

Matt James

Game Developer
I should have clarified more in the article but as for fixing the math, I feel implementing it through this type of sub-system could have been more equitable for the player-base (instead of through feat taxes).
 

I am one of the biggest fans of themes in 4E that you will find and I am amazed at the fact Wizards has done nothing to introduce them into the wider game yet.

I think they were supposed to come out in one of the books that got cancelled. I predict that we'll see them by summer (I want to say the book they were supposed to be in was supposed to be out in July).
 

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