D&D General If D&D were created today, what would it look like?

[Ruin Explorer]

I think this might relate to what I see a a major difference between our timeline and this hypothetical one: would dungeon crawling as a game structure exist without DnD? Every alternate path to DnD I've seen in this thread doesn't suggest dungeons as a major component of the game.

CYOA would focus on story. LARP would focus on talking over fighting. Wargames would focus on set-piece battles. Video games would (and still do) tend toward fairly linear encounter paths. You might get the trappings of a Cavern of Wonders, but the old-school rpg feel of meticulously working through a hazard-filled space while making sure you have enough torches seems to be a very DnD-based trope.

Agree dungeon-crawling would definitely not exist. In this world it would probably never, ever exist.

As such it probably wouldn't be called Dungeons and Dragons. Tombs and Terrors or Castles and Chaos something maybe. Trap-filled tombs and the like would certainly exist, but they'd probably be very small in general, a few rooms. The whole idea of this gigantic, ever-expanding, multi-level dungeon seems to be pretty much straight out of the heads of Gygax and Arneson - and the technologies of the time, particularly graph paper. Note that even in RPGs not directly inspired by D&D they're extremely rare.

 

[jmartkdr2]

Agree dungeon-crawling would definitely not exist. In this world it would probably never, ever exist.

As such it probably wouldn't be called Dungeons and Dragons. Tombs and Terrors or Castles and Chaos something maybe. Trap-filled tombs and the like would certainly exist, but they'd probably be very small in general, a few rooms. The whole idea of this gigantic, ever-expanding, multi-level dungeon seems to be pretty much straight out of the heads of Gygax and Arneson - and the technologies of the time, particularly graph paper. Note that even in RPGs not directly inspired by D&D they're extremely rare.

I read the premise of the thread as the first ttrpg coming out ion 2021, and it being called Dungeons & Dragons, but there's a couple assumptions in there. Not the least is that it's a fantasy game (no particular reason for the first ttrpg to be fantasy-based, especially if it comes out in 2021 - sci-fi and superheroes are at least as likely if not more likely.)

'Dungeons' as a place where adventures/combat might take place? Sure. And the alliteration in the name makes it catchy. But dungeon crawling, megadungeons, careful resource and inventory management, stuff like that? I don't want to say never, but... pretty close to that.

 

[Ruin Explorer]

I read the premise of the thread as the first ttrpg coming out ion 2021, and it being called Dungeons & Dragons, but there's a couple assumptions in there. Not the least is that it's a fantasy game (no particular reason for the first ttrpg to be fantasy-based, especially if it comes out in 2021 - sci-fi and superheroes are at least as likely if not more likely.)

'Dungeons' as a place where adventures/combat might take place? Sure. And the alliteration in the name makes it catchy. But dungeon crawling, megadungeons, careful resource and inventory management, stuff like that? I don't want to say never, but... pretty close to that.

I think careful resource/inventory management is possible but I think it'd be a lot more function-oriented than that 1980s-1990s inventory management we had, like, we'd have better rules for using up rope, torches, rations etc. rather than the vague and rarely-referred to stuff in most RPGs not called Torchbearer.

And yes I strongly suspect if it wasn't fantasy, and it probably wouldn't be, I think superheroes would be mostly likely. Probably with licensed characters, then going on to original ones not even as rules in the main book, but then boom popularity explosion and the idea is out there.

And yeah fair enough on the name, I think it can work just because of alliteration and rescuing people from the dungeon of the evil emperor (which will be even bigger in this) and so on. So objection retracted. But yes big-ass "dungeons" won't be a thing. I think eventually someone will make an adventure set in massive underground ruins, but they'll be much more specific and purposeful, like an actual structure, very much unlike that "LOL RANDOM" factor of a lot of early dungeons IRL.

 

[turnip_farmer]

We might still be in agreement. I am envisioning a Warhammer 40k without any D&D influence and without any Warhammer Fantasy Battle influence. I think it is possible for Warhammer 40k to come about without either. Of course there would be some changes to it, but I don't think they are so extreme we can no longer recognise it in comparison to Warhammer 40k.

I'm imagining a continuing Asgard miniatures here, with Bryan Ansell and Rick Priestly continuing to make sci-fi rulesets for the miniatures. The name of the game would be different, it would likely be "Rogue Trader 40,000" instead of Warhammer 40,000, and it would lack Orks (Space Orcs), Eldar (Space Elves), and Squats (Space Dwarves). But while those are loved aspects of the setting (well, maybe not Squats), they are not intrinsic to Warhammer 40k.

Some of the big influences on 40k are from Dune and 2000AD. Find any panel from Nemesis the Warlock and you'll see it dripping in what would become 40k terminology:

Possibly more interesting than Orks and Eldar, is that it might have been a 40k without Chaos, since this does trace its origins to Moorcock via DnD. Without DnD, the inquisitors would just be hunting alien threats. They do that in real world 40k, of course, but this always feels secondary to the primary threat of the Chaos gods.

 

[Scribe]

Possibly more interesting than Orks and Eldar, is that it might have been a 40k without Chaos, since this does trace its origins to Moorcock via DnD. Without DnD, the inquisitors would just be hunting alien threats. They do that in real world 40k, of course, but this always feels secondary to the primary threat of the Chaos gods.

Moorcocks Law/Chaos was pre-DnD no?

 

[turnip_farmer]

Moorcocks Law/Chaos was pre-DnD no?

Yes, but it was because of it's inclusion in DnD that it became an inherent part of the Warhammer cosmology. If they were making a sci-fi game in Nottingham in the 80s without any DnD influence, I don't think they would be drawing from the Elric books for the setting.

 

[JEB]

We might still be in agreement. I am envisioning a Warhammer 40k without any D&D influence and without any Warhammer Fantasy Battle influence. I think it is possible for Warhammer 40k to come about without either. Of course there would be some changes to it, but I don't think they are so extreme we can no longer recognise it in comparison to Warhammer 40k.

I'm imagining a continuing Asgard miniatures here, with Bryan Ansell and Rick Priestly continuing to make sci-fi rulesets for the miniatures. The name of the game would be different, it would likely be "Rogue Trader 40,000" instead of Warhammer 40,000, and it would lack Orks (Space Orcs), Eldar (Space Elves), and Squats (Space Dwarves). But while those are loved aspects of the setting (well, maybe not Squats), they are not intrinsic to Warhammer 40k.

Some of the big influences on 40k are from Dune and 2000AD. Find any panel from Nemesis the Warlock and you'll see it dripping in what would become 40k terminology:

I argue the look and feel of the Imperium still comes about without D&D. Because that has it's roots in 2000 AD instead. With this in mind, at Asgard miniatures, you have another miniatures sculptor Jes Goodwin. If you are unfamiliar with Jes Goodwin, he is the designer of the Space Marine amongst too many others to name.

So I think you get a miniatures sci-fi game with both the dark tone of the Imperium and the Space Marines at it's front and centre. The nature of the alien threats they fight becomes different with no D&D or Fantasy Battle, but everything else remains very recognisable.

The people who created 40k were making sci-fi miniatures and games before Warhammer Fantasy Battle was created, and their influences would still be there even without D&D. So I think this game comes about regardless if there is a Warhammer Fantasy Battle or not.

And then, presuming Space Marines are as popular in the alternate timeline as they are in ours, the company grows and seeks to expand into other ranges of miniatures.

It's certainly possible there would be a game with some very broad resemblance to Warhammer 40K in this timeline, you make a compelling argument there. But I still doubt we'd see a fantasy analogue, considering how much 40K has overtaken Warhammer Fantasy in popularity within our history. Plus, this is likely a world where SF is more dominant in the tabletop gaming space to start with.

That doesn't mean, however, that this Warhammer 40K equivalent wouldn't exert some influence on the early, SF-inspired RPG industry. But its influence would not include anything that Warhammer itself drew from D&D.

Now, I am much less invested in the history of Blizzard than I am Games Workshop. I think it is known that those at Blizzard at the time were big fans of Games Workshop, so I think Starcraft comes about if 40k comes about. It doesn't seem to be an incredible stretch that fantasy versions of the games might arise from them, (simply the other way round to how it was in real life), ableit fantasy without D&D and Tolkien tropes.

I'm still doubting this. Blizzard went through two Warcraft games before they did Starcraft, so if you delete Warcraft they probably never get around to Starcraft. (Heck, they may never even become that prominent of a company, since their third pillar, Diablo, is extremely D&D-inspied.) Even if they did create Starcraft, if the Warhammer 40K analog in this timeline has no fantasy equivalent to inspire them, they wouldn't be likely to come up with Warcraft on their own.

 

[JEB]

I read the premise of the thread as the first ttrpg coming out ion 2021, and it being called Dungeons & Dragons, but there's a couple assumptions in there. Not the least is that it's a fantasy game (no particular reason for the first ttrpg to be fantasy-based, especially if it comes out in 2021 - sci-fi and superheroes are at least as likely if not more likely.)

I was under the impression, as far as the premise of the thread, that we were talking about a D&D equivalent (i.e. a fantasy RPG) in 2021, but not necessarily a world where RPGs as a whole aren't invented until 2021. I think it's pretty likely RPGs would have been invented at some point before now, likely owing to CYOA and PC adventure games as previously discussed. If we're going with the idea that D&D AND RPGs aren't invented until 2021, that's a much different line of speculation, because we have to systematically remove anything else that could have inspired the RPG concept...

Anyway, I'd like to agree that this alternate timeline would have superhero RPGs, due to the MCU etc., but we have a surprising lack of prominent superhero RPGs in our own timeline.

 

[jmartkdr2]

I was under the impression, as far as the premise of the thread, that we were talking about a D&D equivalent (i.e. a fantasy RPG) in 2021, but not necessarily a world where RPGs as a whole aren't invented until 2021. I think it's pretty likely RPGs would have been invented at some point before now, likely owing to CYOA and PC adventure games as previously discussed. If we're going with the idea that D&D AND RPGs aren't invented until 2021, that's a much different line of speculation, because we have to systematically remove anything else that could have inspired the RPG concept...

Anyway, I'd like to agree that this alternate timeline would have superhero RPGs, due to the MCU etc., but we have a surprising lack of prominent superhero RPGs in our own timeline.

I'm just going with the question as laid out in the first post.

 

[JEB]

I'm just going with the question as laid out in the first post.

Huh, wow, the first post does propose that RPGs were never invented either. I missed that all this time. That is a much, much tougher question.

Well, for starters, that knocks CYOA and adventure PC games out of the equation as a direct inspiration. Those peaked in the 1980s and 1990s. And I guess for some reason, then, no equivalent to RPGs ever pops up in the video game space either. They stay either focused on action games, or looser adventure/interactive fiction games, never coalescing into the RPG concept. Miniatures wargames and board games somehow never spawn RPG equivalents before 2021 either.

Honestly, if RPGs haven't happened by 2021, I'm not sure they're going to in any form we remotely recognize. More likely it'd just be some form of online LARPing with a heavy action video game influence, maybe translated into a home board game version (that's really just a party game with prompts).

(To be honest, I think the timeline where just D&D is deleted has more to chew on...)