If Everyone Loves Generic, Why Aren't Catalyst Books #1?

[JoeGKushner]

I have a lot of Catalyst games generic stuff. There were a few of them. Some of the later ones I sill want to get.



This is a great book. It is from their 'Universal Supplement Series' and is a bit more than city generation, though it is about that. Mine says it is the third edition. The two earlier editions being from Midkemia Press.

I have Carse and Tulan but was never able to get the other city book. I believe it was Jonril. And checking their site, seems that there was another product I missed, Heart of the Sunken Lands It makes me sad. . Still, they have a nice freebie for those who want it here;

http://midkemia.com/BlkTwr.pdf
http://www.midkemia.com/Towns.pdf

 

[Nagol]

I've seen several references to ideas that generic books may be the way to go in the future due to the limits of the new license.

I feel like one of those kids at a carnival going, "Shenanigans!"

System neutral books are not new. Freeport by Green Ronin did not invent them.

And apparently it wasn't worth continuing on as Green Ronin sees a larger market in their own brands of Mutants & Masterminds and their new work on George R. R. Martin's Song of Fire & Ice.

If universal was the way to go, Catalyst products would be on everyone's game table and shelves.

Catalyst

They're on mine but I've own them for longer than I'd care to admit....(Origins award in 83'? Gak! I'm old.)

I like universla materials but I think people talk the talk and then buy the system specific or there would be more all purpose material out there.

Many (most?) gamers turning to supplements do not want hassles in using the supplement at the table. That's why they're looking for supplements in the first place.

I've used of 'generic' supplements (Grimtooth's, Harn, Judge's Guild, GURPS settings, et al. ) and 'almost the same game' supplements (Palladium, MERP, T&T, C&S, Ars Magica) over the years as inspiration for settings, events and plots.

The problem comes in how generic is the supplement? The more generic, the fewer specifics can be included, so the less appropriate the supplement is to any particular game system and the greater the work required to really integrate the supplement with the game at the table.

I've seen supplements that effectively cater to any game (Whimsy cards and adventure decks spring to mind) and quite frankly, though usable in any game, the interaction of the supplement with the game itself is really limited.

Generic supplements work best when they are effective window dressing (Harn city maps), isolated in the game universe (the city on another plane/strange physics exist in the mist-filled valley/etc.), affect the meta-game environment (Whimsy Cards), or used as inspiration/adapted heavily to fit the game rules and assumptions in play.

Supplement use as inspiration can prove to be both time consuming and difficult to extend/convert to the game system at the table. The larger and more extensive the supplement, the longer the conversion and the greater probability of thorny problems appearing.

 

[darjr]

I have Carse and Tulan but was never able to get the other city book. I believe it was Jonril. And checking their site, seems that there was another product I missed, Heart of the Sunken Lands It makes me sad. . Still, they have a nice freebie for those who want it here;

http://midkemia.com/BlkTwr.pdf
http://www.midkemia.com/Towns.pdf

I have the chaosium carse and tulan. And now those two pdf files. Thank you.

I think the appeal of generic is not that there is a huge desire for them, but that the market is potentially bigger than any single game system you could pick.

 

[jdrakeh]

Well, first off, I don't think that "generic" is the same thing as "non-system specific" — so, let's dispense with that comparison right off. That said, you seem to be overlooking a lot of other factors where the popularity of the Catalyst line is concerned.

First, the Catalyst line is largely out of print (it has been for years), has always been underadvertised (it still is today), and for years, was only available from Flying Buffalo directly (one or two other places now act as dedicated distributors).

These three have things kept the Catalyst line out of the spotlight for years. Seeing as how it still suffers from comparatively arcane distribution and a near total lack of advertising, I don't see the line gaining in popularity again any time soon.

Second, I think another big factor that you're overlooking is that none of the setting books in the Catalyst line are dedicated to detailing a specific fantasy setting in totality, like most setting books for RPGs are. Frex, there is no Catalyst book dedicated to detailing Specific World X in depth.

The City Books, for example, only describe generic quarters of a larger city that is itself not associated with any specific setting. Green Ronin published similar products thick with game mechanics that didn't seem to blow up in the consumer market, either, FWIW.

The Lejentia books focus on only a tiny portion of a much larger world and do nothing to address the rest of that world. Further, the portion of the world that is discussed is sparingly discussed at best, with most of the pages being dedicated to describing characters from an underground comic book that has been OOP for years.

In short, these books are lacking the kind of non-system specific content that people will pay for and are paying for in modern non-system-specifc supplements. FWIW, this is the difference between "generic" and "non-system specific" with regard to RPG settings.

Finally, you have to consider that the Catalyst books were released more than a decade ago (almost two decades ago). This was a time when there was little or no demand for non-system specific material.

If you want to understand the popularity of non-system specific products, I think what you need to do is focus on modern products that are in print, well advertised, and easy to obtain — rather than holding up a poorly advertised, rarely in print, difficult to obtain line of generic supplements that is nearly two decades old as some kind of proof that there is no market for non-system specific supplements today.

 

[JoeGKushner]

Could you make the same arguement for generic city books being made today?

In the top 100 small press items, there are a few that are useful for any system like the old A Magical Medieval Society: Western Europe, which is old and has a fairly large crowd, but the recent (since you mentioned being new) Generic Universal Publishign, doesn't crack that list at all. Now if you go to Generic/Any System, they have a copule of entries but still ain't top dog.

 

[Beginning of the End]

Generic supplements fall into two categories:

(1) Material that requires no mechanic support. Cumberland's Fief is a good example of this kind of product.

(2) Material that requires mechanical support (stat blocks, etc.), but simply lacks it under the theory that the GM can supply their own stats for their system of choice.

The first problem is that you've eliminated from your audience anyone who buys supplements primarily to get plug-and-play stats and mechanical expansions (which appears, from my POV, to be the largest segment of the market).

Of course, the theory is that you're appealing to a larger audience across all applicable games.

The problem with this theory is that, while you are appealing to a larger audience, you are ALSO competing against a larger number of products.

Why?

Well, look at how generic products are used. If you're using System X, then you take the generic product and stat it up for System X.

Now, compare that to how a user of System X might use a product from System Y. What would they do? They would stat it up for System X.

And I postulate that people who are willing to use generic supplements are just as likely to be willing to use non-generic supplements from other game systems.

In this post-OGL era, therefore, there's no reason to produce a generic supplement of type #2.

What about type #1? Probably more feasible. Although, in practice, there's a very narrow niche of products that actually land in that area. And many of those are actually competing with non-fiction books and resources in general.

This is the calculus we performed here at DMP with our City Supplements when 4th Edition was announced. We considered moving to generic, stat-less content in order to appeal to users of both editions. But then we realized that 95%+ of the books were already stat-less and the only thing we would accomplish by doing that was to make the books less appealing to players of 3rd Edition.

Personally, I land firmly in the "I'm willing to kit-bash from anything" camp and own several generic products.

 

[Mark]

Generic supplements fall into two categories:

(1) Material that requires no mechanic support. Cumberland's Fief is a good example of this kind of product.

(2) Material that requires mechanical support (stat blocks, etc.), but simply lacks it under the theory that the GM can supply their own stats for their system of choice.

That's a fair point that I ignored above since the catalyst, if you will, for this thread seemed to be about that latter rather than the former. Darkfuries Publishing puts out a lot of stuff that requires little or no stats, some virtually systemless.

 

[Andre]

(2) Material that requires mechanical support (stat blocks, etc.), but simply lacks it under the theory that the GM can supply their own stats for their system of choice.

The first problem is that you've eliminated from your audience anyone who buys supplements primarily to get plug-and-play stats and mechanical expansions (which appears, from my POV, to be the largest segment of the market).

Of course, the theory is that you're appealing to a larger audience across all applicable games.

The problem with this theory is that, while you are appealing to a larger audience, you are ALSO competing against a larger number of products.

Why?

Well, look at how generic products are used. If you're using System X, then you take the generic product and stat it up for System X.

Now, compare that to how a user of System X might use a product from System Y. What would they do? They would stat it up for System X.

And I postulate that people who are willing to use generic supplements are just as likely to be willing to use non-generic supplements from other game systems.

In this post-OGL era, therefore, there's no reason to produce a generic supplement of type #2.
.

Another element to consider is consumer practice. While I have no data to prove this, I suspect most people who play a particular game system first look for supplements for that system, and only afterwards look at other material. Not because of considerations about stats and such, but because they think "I play D&D. Let's go to the D&D section and see what's new."

It's a bit like going into a book store. I immediately go to a few particular sections (history, sci-fi). It's not because other books won't interest me, it's because those are the areas I'm most interested in. If I find something in one of those sections, I'm far less likely to even look in other sections - and if you want me to buy, you first have to get me to look.

 

[Dannyalcatraz]

I like generic rpg products if...

1) they're good,

2) they fill a need that I have.

Then again, I prefer HERO and M&M, so many generic products are useless to me- those systems are so flexible they're pretty well self-contained.

OTOH, I love my old Primal Order books, and find my Central Casting books from Task Force Games to be invaluable. And I know I have weapon books from Palladium and other companies around here somewhere.

A note on those Palladium books- while I am one of those who decries Palladium mechanics while extolling their creativity, the weapon books are an exception. The mechanics are good enough and generic enough that you really can translate the material therin into most systems.

Which is nice, since they tend to include a lot of exotic weaponry.

 

[Harlekin]

I've seen several references to ideas that generic books may be the way to go in the future due to the limits of the new license.

I feel like one of those kids at a carnival going, "Shenanigans!"

System neutral books are not new. Freeport by Green Ronin did not invent them.

And apparently it wasn't worth continuing on as Green Ronin sees a larger market in their own brands of Mutants & Masterminds and their new work on George R. R. Martin's Song of Fire & Ice.

If universal was the way to go, Catalyst products would be on everyone's game table and shelves.

Catalyst

They're on mine but I've own them for longer than I'd care to admit....(Origins award in 83'? Gak! I'm old.)

I like universla materials but I think people talk the talk and then buy the system specific or there would be more all purpose material out there.

I think many gamers make no big difference between generic books and low crunch books for the wrong system. Hence, if you publish a generic book you have a much wider range of competitors. If you write a book about something D&D specific, you will compete with every book on the subject from 1st edition on out. And if you write about something else you will compete with non-D&D gaming products as well, other roleplaying games and potentially even non-fiction works.