If Harm is broken, what's the best house rule for it?

[Tom Cashel]

From the SRD:

Harm

Necromancy
Level: Clr 6, Destruction 6, Drd 7
Components: V, S
Casting Time: 1 action
Range: Touch
Target: Creature touched
Duration: Instantaneous
Saving Throw: None
Spell Resistance: Yes

Harm charges a subject with negative energy that causes the loss of all but 1d4 hit points.

If used on an undead creature, harm acts like heal.

Broken? No. Effective? By all means.

Negative Energy Protection provides no proof against this spell, of course, but the simplest way to counter it is with a Heal spell. Which leads to the idea that if you're able to heal, you should be able to harm. And don't let's forget that a range of Touch can be a little dicey at Challenge Ratings that include the use of 6th level Cleric spells.

Harm preserves rules-symmetry and gives villains a nice smackdown to use on Billy Badass PCs. I like it! Who's with me?

 

[Furn_Darkside]

Re: [Flogging a horse with 1d4 hp left] Harm broken? I think not.

I like it! Who's with me?

Not me.

It gets a saving throw imc.

FD

 

[Tom Cashel]

Roll to hit AND a saving throw?

Now that's broken.

 

[Kyramus]

I use harm as is. By the time it's going to be used on pc's some of them might have already invested in getting some minor SR. OR in some cases have items already that grant some sr.

Either way, it gives a cleric the ability to strike fear in the pcs and also gives the idea that death can happen.

I have played with kidgloves and allowed for a saving throw to harm before and IT just breaks all thought, since Heal is the opposite and it is a touch spell and when used against undead it wouldn't have a saving throw because it's a TOUCH spell. so Harm don't have a saving throw.

I play without kidgloves now and what the pc's get, they get.

Kyramus

 

[Furn_Darkside]

Now that's broken.

Yeah, those touch attacks at such a level are so difficult to make.

My heart is breaking- someone start the violin music.

FD

 

[(Psi)SeveredHead]

Which leads to the idea that if you're able to heal, you should be able to harm.

The Inflict spells allow saving throws. When Cure spells are used on undead, saving throws are allowed, as well.

If you let Harm go without some kind of saving throw, are you going to force PCs to roll a save to see if Heal actually heals them?

I have played with kidgloves and allowed for a saving throw to harm before and IT just breaks all thought, since Heal is the opposite and it is a touch spell and when used against undead it wouldn't have a saving throw because it's a TOUCH spell. so Harm don't have a saving throw.

If Harm allows a save, then against undead, Heal should allow the same save. Touch spells are allowed to have saves, as long as the save isn't a Refles save (this rule is occasionally not followed, eg Flame Arrow). Harm isn't just nasty against PC, it's nasty against dragons, colossal scorpions, etc.

 

[Lucius Foxhound]

I don't get it. Why would you cast harm on a horse?

 

[Tom Cashel]

The Inflict spells allow saving throws. When Cure spells are used on undead, saving throws are allowed, as well.

That's irrelevant. I'm just talking about the Heal/Harm dichotomy; the highest echelon of their ilk.

Harm isn't just nasty against PC, it's nasty against dragons, colossal scorpions, etc.

Yeah, but that's only if you allow evil cleric PCs in your game. Harm has the Evil descriptor and will cause good clerics to lose their divine abilities.

 

[Tom Cashel]

Yeah, those touch attacks at such a level are so difficult to make.

[sarcasm snip]

Are you usually a DM or a player, Furn? If you DM, why would you want to de-fang your villains like that?

looks around to see where violin music is coming from

No, of course the Touch attack isn't that hard to make. But the fighter you just reduced to, say, 3 hp will have no problem giving a big 'ol thwackity-thwack with his axe...and "at such a level" a fighter can do mucho damage. Enough to render a harm spell balanced, IMO.

 

[Leopold]

I spoke to my PC who runs a cleric and basically told him the House Rule:

1. Harm gets a save vs living creatures
2. Heal gets a save vs. undead creatures
3. This applies to your PC's as well as the monsters.


He felt this was fair and so I am going by that rule. ANYTHING that can drop a 1000+ hp dragon to 1d4 IMHO needs a save..