If I could get a few comments on a custom race ability, it would be appreciated

[Volaran]

I've been helping my current DM with his world design process. He asked me to do the mechanics of the various races, new feats, prestige classes, ect. while he takes care of the main elements, as he feels that I'm better at balancing things, keeping with the system and such. Thus far I've had little trouble, and have been enjoying it, but coming to races, I find I have some problems.

He has several humanoid feline races that are puzzling me. Two in particular.


The first race is the Cheeth, obviously relating to humanoid, cheeta type people. He wants their charges to be "the most deadly and terrifying in the world" as well as continuously referring to them being able to move at 60 miles an hour. Now, I like the Sprint extrordiany ability, but for a creature with a 30 base movement rate, it isn't quite as fast. In addition, I gather he wants the fearsome nature of the charge to be reflected by extra damage of some sort and I'm unsure how to justify this, as charge damage doesn't seem dependant on movement rate.

So, basically, does anyone have an idea how I might represent these. I thought the Sprint ability might be more acceptable if the base movement was higher...but that's all I'd been thinking of as of yet.

THe second race, the Leonine are lion-like humanoids. They just manage to be in the Large size catagory. The way he described them seems quite powerful, but he doesn't want them to have an ECL increase. He did want bonuses to Constitution and Strength, but the only penalties that might apply to them are Dexterity and Charisma, and not in an equal way. They're a very warlike race, with an admiration for brute strength, but at the same time highly focused and with a sophisticated culture. I was hoping someone might be able to suggest a few negatives (not necessarily in terms of ability scores) that might balance this out.

Sorry that this is fairly vague, but I want to get a few ideas before I go back and discuss with him how to go about this in a balanced way.

Thanks in advance!

 

[DreamChaser]

In the case of the cheetah people, your DM is describing a creature that can take a movement of about 600 (figuring that 30 feet in 6 seconds translates to about 3.5 miles per hour...that is about a x20 movement action. If properly limited, that could be made moderate.

the problem of tieing the races damage to its speed is that if it were a basic charge, reason dictates that it would take as much damage as the target. Real cheetahs attack with natural strength. They are dangerous whether they are running or not (they only run to catch their prey).

With the Leonine species, you DM may be asking for the impossible. If he wants a bonus to strength and constitution and large size, there is very little way to avoid an ECL increase of at least +1.

The problem with making feline races is when using the great cats as a model you are always going to end up selling them short; humans are physically inferior to the great cats by more than can be easily measured...since humans are the ultimate of ECL +0, the great cats end up more powerful.

I would give the cheetah's a natural movement of 40 and the ability to sprint up to 10 times faster for an limited time. This would make them fast but not ridiculously so. That much speed would be frightening by itself.

For the leonines, give them a +2 to strength, a -2 to dex. their large size is as much a hinderance as a benefit. Give them a deafening roar or a morale shaking roar.

Them's my thoughts.

 

[Kaptain_Kantrip]

For the terrifying charge idea, how about something akin to this feat?

Improved Charge (ex)
Prerequisite: Dex 13+, Base Move 40 ft.+
Benefit: When charging, you do not suffer any penalty to your AC.
Normal: You suffer a -2 penalty to AC when charging.

This would work for your cat people and regular ol' Barbarians of other races.

 

[Volaran]

Well, that gives me a place to start with my arguments at least. ^_^

I agree with your assessments on both counts. I'm hoping that I can talk him down to the movement rate increase and the Sprint Ability (and gods help anyone who tries to outrace a high level cheethan monk).

I like your point about the Large size of the leonine and had been thinking about going with suggesting that stats might be rolled normally and nothing but the size modifiers added. Since, as you say, size is both a help and a hinderance, do you think that alone might leave them balanced?

 

[Volaran]

For the terrifying charge idea, how about something akin to this feat?

Improved Charge (ex)
Prerequisite: Dex 13+, Base Move 40 ft.+
Benefit: When charging, you do not suffer any penalty to your AC.
Normal: You suffer a -2 penalty to AC when charging.

This would work for your cat people and regular ol' Barbarians of other races.

That, I think I could get him to accept. With what DreamChaser suggested, their basic warriors could qualify, with it possibly being the most common feat, it would give them the advantage that was desired...without every member of the race able to do it, and as you say, a good barbarian feat.

Thank you!

 

[Crothian]

I like your point about the Large size of the leonine and had been thinking about going with suggesting that stats might be rolled normally and nothing but the size modifiers added. Since, as you say, size is both a help and a hinderance, do you think that alone might leave them balanced?

By size modifiers, what are you talking about? Just the -1 to attack damage, -4 to hide, and +4 to grapple?

Personally, I'd just make really big for medium sized. It'll really save you a whole lot of headaches.

 

[Volaran]

By size modifiers, what are you talking about? Just the -1 to attack damage, -4 to hide, and +4 to grapple?

Personally, I'd just make really big for medium sized. It'll really save you a whole lot of headaches.

Oh, I agree about the size being annoying, but some things aren't negotiable...the race has shown up a lot, but he's never had to stat them out before, so consistency is an issue.

In any case, I should have been more clear. I was thinking of the size increase modifiers in the Monster manual. In this case, rolling for a medium sized character normally, and moving it up to large. That would be a +8 to strength, -2 Dex and +4 Con...though I suspect the natural armor would not be added, and -1 to AC/Attack rolls.

Though as I look at it now, that +8 is really glaring at me.

Maybe +4 strength, +2 Con, -2 Dex, -4 Cha...

 

[Crothian]

I was afraid you meant those MM uping of size chart. That is not balanced in the least. It's for increasing the size of monsters but uping their HD. It's a big power increase because the creatures are getting tougher.

Why don't you describe them as much as you know? Includ heights and stuff. Maybe someone can figure out a balance based on the description.

 

[Volaran]

I was afraid you meant those MM uping of size chart. That is not balanced in the least. It's for increasing the size of monsters but uping their HD. It's a big power increase because the creatures are getting tougher.

Why don't you describe them as much as you know? Includ heights and stuff. Maybe someone can figure out a balance based on the description.

Okay, I'll go along with that.

The average leonine is around 10-11 feet tall. They tend to be very thickly muscled. They tend to look for mates based on combat prowess, physical strength, ect.

Their culture is very focused around personal honor, loyalty, and duty. Ritualized combat is used to solve more extreme disputes among leonine, but it is seldom lethal, as they view killing others of one's own species to be anethema. They respect certain aspects of the cultures of other races, but tend to see them as inferior overall. They're an expansionistic culture, and they're very good at it, due to excellent battle tactics, their physical size, and the relative disarray of their immediate neighbors.

Their favoured class is fighter, and they usually go for the heavy armor and big freaking weapon route.

When describing a leonine, stength and confidence would probably be the most memorable qualities....beyond the giant cat part.

 

[WaterRabbit]

Leonine

I don't see how you can do this without either
a) giving them an ECL = Class Levels +8 or better (You are
describing something equvalent to a minotaur)
b) making them a NPC race only and not worrying about it
c) loading them down with disadvantages

Sample disadvange:
Poor learners -- Race does not get feats every three levels they only get their starting feat.
Bad reputation -- ALL other races in the campaign world kill them on sight due to their reputation for Bloodlust.
Bloodlust -- Never take prisoners, always kill foes

plus at least 4 more to get them down to a +0 race.

When designing a +0 race, compare them to humans. Humans get a net zero in stats (see DMG pg. 24 about not all stats being equal). They get one excellent feat, Bonus Feat (can choose any feat) and one good feat, Skilled (extra skill point per level, 4 at 1st).

You could make this a +0 race if, they were still medium-sized, but at the top end. You could give them a +4 bonus to strength and a +2 bonus to con with no other feats and no ability penalties.
But I am guessing from your description that they also have natural claws and teeth, plus some keen senses. Do they also have reach ?