If our Hobby has a problem, it is the difficulty of interpersonal communcation.

[Bagpuss]

I have seen a dismayingly large number of Gamers who insist on insulting their fellow Gamers. I don't particularly know why they insist on doing this, but they do it anyways. It poisons the well and harms the Hobby, but they still do it.

That's people in general, not limited to Gamers, you'll see the same thing in everything from the work place to a gospel choir. It's posturing to discover where folks fit in the pecking order.

 

[SweeneyTodd]

Finally, and foremost, AD&D and D&D require a DM. This person must be very highly skilled in freeform interpersonal communication, must be very effective in Group Politics, must know the game very well, must have spent a great deal of time and effort preparing the adventure, and must have more time and energy in general.
Not that the DM is always appreciated for these extra requirements by the players: the DM is usually very badly underappreciated, and when the DM realizes this it makes it ever so much harder to run a game.
And of course, not all DMs have the requisite skills in the first place, which makes it harder for the players and thus the DM alike.

There's nothing magical about being able to communicate with other people. I'd argue that outside of the hobby, it's not considered any kind of special, rare skill.

I've thought for a long time that if games didn't put all the power in one person's hands, that person wouldn't have to work so hard. Most other social activities rely on the social dynamics of the entire group to cohere and work together -- it's pretty unique to roleplaying to have one person "in charge" the way we do, AND that that one person isn't given the official social authority to *be* "in charge". The DM's in charge of the imaginary world the game takes place in, but who's in charge of the physical group gathered around the gaming table?

 

[Edena_of_Neith]

Posted by Bagpuss:

That's people in general, not limited to Gamers, you'll see the same thing in everything from the work place to a gospel choir. It's posturing to discover where folks fit in the pecking order.

From Edena:

If so, then it's a kind of group politics, in my opinion.
I've already argued that group politics is harmful to the creative process and the imagination. Now, I will contend that group politics - or people politics - is harmful to the Hobby in general.
The Hobby has always been subject to attack from without. Now, it is commonplace for the Hobby and those who practice it to be insulted from within. The Glass House is being shattered by Gamers throwing stones at each other. Thus, the poisoned atmosphere so many Gamers believe exists amongst us.
If you have two people, you have group politics. People politics are inevitable when you have people. And there is no Hobby, without people. Dungeons and Dragons is all about people gathered together.

That's a paradox. I am reminded of the UV within sunlight. Without it, you cannot produce vitamin D and you will die. But UV light damages the eyes, and going blind isn't particularly good for you either.
Without people, there is no Hobby. Yet Gamers, with their insistence on throwing stones, have poisoned the atmosphere and harmed the Hobby. The Hobby may die because we Gamers keep insisting on stone throwing.

 

[Edena_of_Neith]

Posted by SweeneyTodd:

There's nothing magical about being able to communicate with other people. I'd argue that outside of the hobby, it's not considered any kind of special, rare skill.

From Edena_of_Neith:

Ah, but ... as your post implies, within the Hobby it is considered a rare, special skill.
You seem to imply the DM, in particular, needs that skill in great amounts (not to mention a good work ethic!)
That is what I am saying too. Good communication skills are vital to the Hobby.

 

[DethStryke]

My two cents, as they were, is to reflect on why a possible majority (read: 51%) or at the very least the vocal minority of those who play Role-Playing Games are egotistical, verbally abusive and socially retarded:

As mentioned before by others, and what I find to be true, is that people who play role-playing games tend to be unpopular people in social circles in the big picture. Being popular in the Physics club in school is exactly the opposite of that. I'm talking about not having a girlfriend, not being invited to parties (whether you like to go to them is another thing altogether), etc. Mind you, these are the crowds of people (children and teens) that do not participate in sports as a general rule. Their strengths are not in the physical arena. They are strong in the mental arena. These are artists, math majors, and other creative / technical backgrounds.

Social stigmas of not being popular or athlectic are hard to overcome. Those who are made fun of because they can't do ten chin-ups in gym class usually act out the same abuse to those who cannot work with imaginary integers or whatever in reverse. They find their strong suit and build pride (baseless or not) in that strength. At some point in their life, they are shown the unforgiving lesson that if you are strong in something, you should attack those who are not like/as strong as you. This is wrong, but without context or explination, this is what is learned at an age where anything makes sense.

Now, taking that person with pride (regardless of justification) and removing them from helpful situations where they can learn from their mistakes in regards to social interaction (if you're made fun off all the time when you do "Task A" you will probably not try to do "Task A" as much as possible) results in someone who is prideful and will act out aggressions on anyone who challenges their domination of strength (whether actual or percieved).

This shows up in the nerd who acts like a bully at the D&D table just like the jock who acts like a bully to the nerds at school. In the former, no one notices because they are probably really quiet any other time. Their thoughts and how they express themselves are not noticed to anyone who doesn't really bother to get to know them (or game with them, as the case may be). In the latter, those with superior skill at what is considered socially important (i.e. football, baseball, simply "being popular") are sometimes allowed greater lieniency and do not get reprimanded as they should for these "harmless" teasings.

Mind you, this is all in the broad stroke mindset. While there are certainly exceptions to these "rules" (and I use the term loosely) and there will always be, this seems to cover 90% of the similar experiences that I have had and many of my friends. That's alot of tables, mind you, as the sample crowd covers twenty-six-plus years of groups and conventions in a six state area.

I tried not to write a book like Edena.

 

[DethStryke]

There's nothing magical about being able to communicate with other people. I'd argue that outside of the hobby, it's not considered any kind of special, rare skill.

and I would retort by saying that the level of divorce in America alone proves that not being able to communicate effectively with others IS a special, rare skill.

 

[Edena_of_Neith]

Yes, there are many Real Life examples (such as divorce) that show why interpersonal communication is important, and which show how difficult it can be, and so on, but we cannot bring them up on ENWorld. The rules disallow this.
I would recommend the Nothingland messageboard, if you wish to bring Real Life examples into the thread. Because otherwise, the Moderators here will close this thread.

 

[DethStryke]

Yes, there are many Real Life examples (such as divorce) that show why interpersonal communication is important, and which show how difficult it can be, and so on, but we cannot bring them up on ENWorld. The rules disallow this.
I would recommend the Nothingland messageboard, if you wish to bring Real Life examples into the thread. Because otherwise, the Moderators here will close this thread.

Well, specifically and not to simply play devil's advocate, the rules only strictly disallow cursing, raunchy/racist/dirty text (grandma rule), not staying on topic, name-calling, politics and religion; my social comment of divorce bring from (in part, obviously) many people's inability to effectively communicate with other involved no cursing, name-calling, racist, raunchy or dirty text (I dare say Eric's Grandma would agree! ). It was neither political nor religious (well, this was closest as it could be construed as a religious joining, but that's really stretching from the purpose of my comment in context). Best of all, it was squarely on topic (speaking on the general lack of communication between people). It is more a scientific observation, honestly. If the rules disallowed speaking about real-life, this entire thread would have been locked from the first post on. In close, I respectively disagree with your assertion, sir.

I do agree with the spirit of your post, however, as many cannot separate observations from emotion, and divorce is not a flame-retardant topic. However, I will rely on the integrity of those who enter the conversation past this point to observe the rules as they are stated in the Rules of ENWorld FAQ and maintain my comment in the context it was meant. We are all adults here, and time and again the entire community has shown that they can have a reasonable conversation/debate without breaking the Rules.

(PS- after re-reading this a couple times, I know this could sound really, really sarcastic. Please understand that is the furthest from my intentions.)

 

[William Ronald]

Posted by Bagpuss:

That's people in general, not limited to Gamers, you'll see the same thing in everything from the work place to a gospel choir. It's posturing to discover where folks fit in the pecking order.

From Edena:

If so, then it's a kind of group politics, in my opinion.
I've already argued that group politics is harmful to the creative process and the imagination. Now, I will contend that group politics - or people politics - is harmful to the Hobby in general.
The Hobby has always been subject to attack from without. Now, it is commonplace for the Hobby and those who practice it to be insulted from within. The Glass House is being shattered by Gamers throwing stones at each other. Thus, the poisoned atmosphere so many Gamers believe exists amongst us.
If you have two people, you have group politics. People politics are inevitable when you have people. And there is no Hobby, without people. Dungeons and Dragons is all about people gathered together.

That's a paradox. I am reminded of the UV within sunlight. Without it, you cannot produce vitamin D and you will die. But UV light damages the eyes, and going blind isn't particularly good for you either.
Without people, there is no Hobby. Yet Gamers, with their insistence on throwing stones, have poisoned the atmosphere and harmed the Hobby. The Hobby may die because we Gamers keep insisting on stone throwing.

Sadly, there are group politics in any activity. I have been to cons with people I would love to have in a home game. However, I have also gamed with people who I hoped were not obnoxious outside the gaming table.

I think it is possible to strike a balance between creativity and a structured rules set. The Ancient Greeks had a saying: Balance in all things. (As for game rules, I think the concept of balance helps ensure that everyone can have a character that can make a contribution at the gaming table. Behind this is a belief that everyone at the gaming table SHOULD have fun.)

I don't think that the hobby will die. However, I think one thing that is important is to respect the diversity of opinions that people have on games. I have some preferences as to what I like in a game, and some people have others. However, I do not believe that someone with a different view is necessarily a bad person or a fool. Perhaps communication in gaming and in other areas would improve if we gave each other the respect that we demand for ourselves.

 

[Edena_of_Neith]

Great post, DethStryke!!
Heh. Why haven't you been in this thread before now?
I'd hate to be a Rules-Lawyer in one of your games.

Well put, William. As always. But check out Deth's post above. What do they call that? It's not dead-panning, nor sarcasm, nor parody. It's ?