If the devils are how monsters will be....I am so happy

[pemerton]

Blasphemy was also a powerful (a bit overpowered) opening combat spell. I used it to support the troops and put the players on their heals unless they remembered their Silence spells. I like requiring my players to use tactics other than enter melee and start swinging.

As Small Pumpkin Man and Med Stud have said, there is nothing especially tactical on the Pit Fiend's part about opening with its powerful "I win" effects.

And why would the party need to spread out when they fight the 4E Pit Fiend? Because of the Irresisteble Command? When the PCs focus on the Pit Fiend then it is doing them a favor when it explodes a undamaged devil as the damage this explosion does is much less then what the devil could do.

As Med Stud has said, the Pit Fiend's Auras and exploding minions give PCs a reason to spread out. Not to mention that it's ability to teleport minions, setting up flanking situations (which I wouldn't be surprised if it's minons can take advantage of) also makes the PCs engage in tactical play.

As Dausal said, instead of playing spellcaster "paper, scissor, rock", the combat looks like it will involve actual tactical decisions on the battlefield.

 

[Celtavian]

re

As Small Pumpkin Man and Med Stud have said, there is nothing especially tactical on the Pit Fiend's part about opening with its powerful "I win" effects.


As Med Stud has said, the Pit Fiend's Auras and exploding minions give PCs a reason to spread out. Not to mention that it's ability to teleport minions, setting up flanking situations (which I wouldn't be surprised if it's minons can take advantage of) also makes the PCs engage in tactical play.

As Dausal said, instead of playing spellcaster "paper, scissor, rock", the combat looks like it will involve actual tactical decisions on the battlefield.

Explain how? If combat is reduced to movement and swinging, explain how that is more tactical than coordinated use of SLAs? Explain it to me.

Moving a few combatants around isn't extraordinary tactics. The average party size is still four. There is no reason to believe the average small party is going to spread out and allow itself to be killed piecemeal.

So this whole minion movement is going to be about as useful as a fifth wheel on a car. Players don't move very much. The only thing that forces them to move is the enemy moving. If a Pit Fiend is a pure melee creatures, than why would they move anywhere other than within melee range of the enemy? I've run a ton of combats and nothing you guys are stating as tactics is very tactical. Moving into flanks for a hit bonus? My players and creatures already did this when applicable. Because they can do it as a magic action that is more tactical?

Do you really think that moving your minions around magically looks very cool on the movie screen of your mind? It's such a painfully obvious use of game mechanics that it takes you out of the verisimilitude of the story. Tell me a story where a creature or powerful villain every moved his minions around magically to flank a creature? I don't even see that in comic books or anime. So what about this ability makes this interesting from a tactical or story standpoint?

I don't disagree that SLAs needed some work. But removing options from the Pit Fiend turning them into a pure melee creature is not a good way to enhance the Pit Fiend. We are talking about a Lord of Devils here and all the game designers could come up with was to make them melee monsters with a few nifty tactical movement and flashy explosion abilities?

I don't know about you, but I like to use my devils for more than just straight up combat encounters. They should be able to do a variety of actions that include hold or mind control type spells, manipulation of fire for more than just fireball or blast attacks, generate illusions to enhance their beguiling, and other such abilities one might associate with a Lord of Devils.

Sure, you can argue that the old Pit Fiend wasn't all that interesting. But this new one is even less so. I was hoping that the devils and demons, especially higher end devils and demons, would be more like figures you would see in books with powerful attack powers as well as powerful abilities for manipulation, deception, and tyranny such as enthral, dominate, and illusion type powers. I didn't get that.

Instead I get a Pit Fiend that is little more than a tough melee encounter. Real cool. This is not an upgrade from the 3.5 Pit Fiend save to DMs and Players who like to run pure combat campaigns. As I'm not one of those types of DMs or players, I see devils that are seriously lacking. This version of the Pit Fiend is just a big, bad combat encounter that will require a great deal of modification to use for anything other than "a do as much damage as you can before he outdamages you encounter".

No tactical spell memorization required of the players. No reconaissance required. No thinking on the part of the players. Just go into combat and swing until dead. How any of you can argue that this Pit Fiend is anything other than a high end combat encounter is mind boggling.

 

[pemerton]

Celtavian, I didn't argue that the Pit Fiend, qua combatant, is anything other than a high-end combat encounter. I did argue that it is no less tactical (all that's lost, from the point of view of functionality, is illusionism, and a new minion-teleporting ability has taken its place).

If you want to do other (non-combat) things with your Pit Fiend, you will have to look to other parts of the game mechanics than its combat stats. You seem very confident that those other mechanics won't be there (either in the MM or DMG). I don't know where you get this confidence from, as it contradicts what has been said by the designers of the game (eg in W&M, or in the Pit Fiend article itself which mentions the Wish ritual).

As to the issue of mobility and tactics, I still don't understand what is very tactical (as opposed to powerful) about Blasphemy and Hold Monster. And yes, it seems pretty clear that 4e will produce more mobile combats. This is an explicit design goal, and the playtest reports suggest that it is being accomplished.

 

[Dausuul]

Moving a few combatants around isn't extraordinary tactics. The average party size is still four. There is no reason to believe the average small party is going to spread out and allow itself to be killed piecemeal.

If they don't spread out, then they all get to fry in the pit fiend's fire aura and suffer the penalties of his fear aura, and have devils explode in their faces every round. Clustering together is a bad plan against an enemy with area attacks. Of course, spreading out is also a bad plan against a mobile enemy... kind of nasty, isn't it?

So this whole minion movement is going to be about as useful as a fifth wheel on a car. Players don't move very much. The only thing that forces them to move is the enemy moving. If a Pit Fiend is a pure melee creatures, than why would they move anywhere other than within melee range of the enemy?

The pit fiend will do best by moving from PC to PC, nailing them with sting and flaming mace so they're all taking damage over time. And if your PCs don't move much, I can only assume you either have a group of all straight-up fighters, or some very dumb PCs, or you're not pushing them very hard. I can tell you that in my games, when enemy melee troops pop up next to the party wizard with big toothy grins on their faces, that wizard does not just sit there. Not to mention that many warrior-types have abilities that require them to move a certain distance (e.g., Skirmish), abilities that trigger on a charge (a lot of Bo9S maneuvers, Shock Trooper, Spirited Charge), et cetera.

In any case, I suspect the main advantage to the pit fiend's ability to teleport its minions is that it offers supreme mobility. It lets them move without being exposed to the "stickiness" that Defender classes in 4E normally possess, not to mention bypassing blockades set up by the Controller, and taking advantage of terrain. The PCs think they have everything under control, the melee devils are all locked in combat with the fighter, the rogue is flanking, the cleric is buffing, and the wizard is casting from the back... and then suddenly the pit fiend is standing right on top of the wizard, and the legion devils are lined up to block the other PCs from getting through to him.

That's tactics.

Do you really think that moving your minions around magically looks very cool on the movie screen of your mind? It's such a painfully obvious use of game mechanics that it takes you out of the verisimilitude of the story. Tell me a story where a creature or powerful villain every moved his minions around magically to flank a creature? I don't even see that in comic books or anime. So what about this ability makes this interesting from a tactical or story standpoint?

I envision it as devils vanishing in a flash of smoke and fire and reappearing somewhere else in another flash. Pyrotechnic, yes, but hardly unbelievable. Or, if you prefer a more shadow-themed devil, they become one with the shifting shadows that cover the battlefield, only to emerge elsewhere.

No tactical spell memorization required of the players. No reconaissance required. No thinking on the part of the players. Just go into combat and swing until dead. How any of you can argue that this Pit Fiend is anything other than a high end combat encounter is mind boggling.

Of course it's a high-end combat encounter. That's what a 4E stat block is for. The rest is for the DM to fill in, with guidance from the fluff text and the ritual mechanics. However, if you think you can just walk in and "swing until dead..."

Yeah, somehow I don't think that'll work very well against a DM who plays the pit fiend intelligently. It sure wouldn't against me. You'd spend all your time struggling around trying to get past the fiend's minions, while the fiend teleported around the battlefield, picking off the squishier PCs one by one. Or you'd huddle together in a group while the minions surrounded you and mobbed the casters, and the pit fiend stood with his arms folded, letting his aura roast you all alive and occasionally throwing an exploding devil at you.

 

[Peter LaCara]

Explain how? If combat is reduced to movement and swinging, explain how that is more tactical than coordinated use of SLAs? Explain it to me.

Because combat *won't* be just movement and swinging. Have you forgotten about all the nifty powers everyone has?

Moving a few combatants around isn't extraordinary tactics. The average party size is still four. There is no reason to believe the average small party is going to spread out and allow itself to be killed piecemeal.

First of all, the assumed party size in 4e is now five PCs, though that's nitpicking. Second of all, when I have a dude with a 15' radius fire and fear aura who can also cause fairly big explosions all over the battlefield, I find that pretty decent incentive to spread out myself.

So this whole minion movement is going to be about as useful as a fifth wheel on a car. Players don't move very much. The only thing that forces them to move is the enemy moving. If a Pit Fiend is a pure melee creatures, than why would they move anywhere other than within melee range of the enemy? I've run a ton of combats and nothing you guys are stating as tactics is very tactical. Moving into flanks for a hit bonus? My players and creatures already did this when applicable. Because they can do it as a magic action that is more tactical?

One of 4e's design goals is to make movement much more important and frequent in combat so that fights aren't anywhere nearly as static as they were in 3.5. And the Pit Fiend would move so he could teleport behind the fighter to tear apart the wizard without being subject to his crazy defender powers. That should encourage the wizard to move away to get out of the fire aura and the fighter to move back toward the devil.

Do you really think that moving your minions around magically looks very cool on the movie screen of your mind?

Yes.

It's such a painfully obvious use of game mechanics that it takes you out of the verisimilitude of the story. Tell me a story where a creature or powerful villain every moved his minions around magically to flank a creature? I don't even see that in comic books or anime. So what about this ability makes this interesting from a tactical or story standpoint?

I don't disagree that SLAs needed some work. But removing options from the Pit Fiend turning them into a pure melee creature is not a good way to enhance the Pit Fiend. We are talking about a Lord of Devils here and all the game designers could come up with was to make them melee monsters with a few nifty tactical movement and flashy explosion abilities?

Once again, as people have pointed out, they have *not* turned the Pit Fiend into a pure melee monster. I would think his seemingly low melee damage would have been the giveaway. He debuffs the PCs, causes big explosions to pop up all over the map, and burns people with his very presence, which as other people have pointed out, is not meaningfully different than the spell-like abilities that it had before.

I don't know about you, but I like to use my devils for more than just straight up combat encounters.

So do I, but that's not what the stats are for.

They should be able to do a variety of actions that include hold or mind control type spells, manipulation of fire for more than just fireball or blast attacks, generate illusions to enhance their beguiling, and other such abilities one might associate with a Lord of Devils.

And I'm sure they can. Just not in the middle of a fight.

Sure, you can argue that the old Pit Fiend wasn't all that interesting. But this new one is even less so. I was hoping that the devils and demons, especially higher end devils and demons, would be more like figures you would see in books with powerful attack powers as well as powerful abilities for manipulation, deception, and tyranny such as enthral, dominate, and illusion type powers. I didn't get that.

Instead I get a Pit Fiend that is little more than a tough melee encounter. Real cool. This is not an upgrade from the 3.5 Pit Fiend save to DMs and Players who like to run pure combat campaigns. As I'm not one of those types of DMs or players, I see devils that are seriously lacking. This version of the Pit Fiend is just a big, bad combat encounter that will require a great deal of modification to use for anything other than "a do as much damage as you can before he outdamages you encounter".

No tactical spell memorization required of the players. No reconaissance required. No thinking on the part of the players. Just go into combat and swing until dead. How any of you can argue that this Pit Fiend is anything other than a high end combat encounter is mind boggling.

 

[Mustrum_Ridcully]

If they don't spread out, then they all get to fry in the pit fiend's fire aura and suffer the penalties of his fear aura, and have devils explode in their faces every round. Clustering together is a bad plan against an enemy with area attacks. Of course, spreading out is also a bad plan against a mobile enemy... kind of nasty, isn't it?



The pit fiend will do best by moving from PC to PC, nailing them with sting and flaming mace so they're all taking damage over time. And if your PCs don't move much, I can only assume you either have a group of all straight-up fighters, or some very dumb PCs, or you're not pushing them very hard. I can tell you that in my games, when enemy melee troops pop up next to the party wizard with big toothy grins on their faces, that wizard does not just sit there. Not to mention that many warrior-types have abilities that require them to move a certain distance (e.g., Skirmish), abilities that trigger on a charge (a lot of Bo9S maneuvers, Shock Trooper, Spirited Charge), et cetera.

In any case, I suspect the main advantage to the pit fiend's ability to teleport its minions is that it offers supreme mobility. It lets them move without being exposed to the "stickiness" that Defender classes in 4E normally possess, not to mention bypassing blockades set up by the Controller, and taking advantage of terrain. The PCs think they have everything under control, the melee devils are all locked in combat with the fighter, the rogue is flanking, the cleric is buffing, and the wizard is casting from the back... and then suddenly the pit fiend is standing right on top of the wizard, and the legion devils are lined up to block the other PCs from getting through to him.

That's tactics.

I might know nothing on tactics, but I know when I see a cool fight. That's definitely one!

 

[med stud]

Explain how? If combat is reduced to movement and swinging, explain how that is more tactical than coordinated use of SLAs? Explain it to me.

What coordinated use? There is nothing coordinated about using mass hold monster or blasphemy. The other spells are just a waste of time and could be fatal for a 3.5 pit fiend against level appropriate PCs.

"Movement and swinging" is a pretty good, if very simple, description of warfare through history. If you mean "move up to enemy - attack until dead" then the new pit fiend is very capable of dealing with that. Three melee combatants run up to it and it teleports 20 feet into the air. The wizard hanging back, intent on using spells from a distance while the fighters run up to the pit fiend could mean that the pit fiend teleports into the air while teleporting to beefy minions to maul the wizard.

If you want to know why movement is tactical I will give you the very short version: Being able to apply the force of your choice to the most crucial opponent on the battle field is very important. As is the ability to avoid being the target of an opponent.

Moving a few combatants around isn't extraordinary tactics. The average party size is still four. There is no reason to believe the average small party is going to spread out and allow itself to be killed piecemeal.

By sticking together the party will multiply the damage dealt by fire aura and exploding underlings by four. Also a lot of times it is detrimental for a party to stick together; a melee fighter is wasting his turns if he hangs back with archers and wizards while the archers and wizards expose themselves to unnecessary danger and AoO:s if they follow the melee fighters into the fray. Those are two solid reasons why a party would split up. Area attacks and different ways of applying their damage to the opposition.

So this whole minion movement is going to be about as useful as a fifth wheel on a car. Players don't move very much. The only thing that forces them to move is the enemy moving. If a Pit Fiend is a pure melee creatures, than why would they move anywhere other than within melee range of the enemy?

Because they are outnumbered or outgunned? Because they want to attack a soft target instead of the target specialized for taking severe beatings?

I've run a ton of combats and nothing you guys are stating as tactics is very tactical. Moving into flanks for a hit bonus? My players and creatures already did this when applicable. Because they can do it as a magic action that is more tactical?

It's more tactical as a magic action because they can bypass many limitations that physical movement comes with. If the defenders position themselves properly it will hurt to bypass them or the movements of the fiends may be to low to get them into flanking positions around the wizard. By teleporting the fiends the pit fiend hereby opens up for far more flanking positions than the battlefield would allow otherwise.

Do you really think that moving your minions around magically looks very cool on the movie screen of your mind? It's such a painfully obvious use of game mechanics that it takes you out of the verisimilitude of the story. Tell me a story where a creature or powerful villain every moved his minions around magically to flank a creature? I don't even see that in comic books or anime. So what about this ability makes this interesting from a tactical or story standpoint?

From a tactical standpoint, see above. From a story standpoint it is subjective and as such I can't see the point of debating it.

I don't disagree that SLAs needed some work. But removing options from the Pit Fiend turning them into a pure melee creature is not a good way to enhance the Pit Fiend. We are talking about a Lord of Devils here and all the game designers could come up with was to make them melee monsters with a few nifty tactical movement and flashy explosion abilities?

I don't know about you, but I like to use my devils for more than just straight up combat encounters. They should be able to do a variety of actions that include hold or mind control type spells, manipulation of fire for more than just fireball or blast attacks, generate illusions to enhance their beguiling, and other such abilities one might associate with a Lord of Devils.

Again this is a matter of taste. For what it's worth, though, the old pit fiend had no powers for mental manipulation other than Hold monster and the closest to mind control it came was Diplomacy +10. The new pit fiend hasn't lost anything when it comes to mental manipulation.

Personally, what I associate with a Lord of Devils is authority over other devils which this one has (if it can command other devils to blow themselves up it wouldn't be too much of a stretch to assume it can command them to do other things as well).

Sure, you can argue that the old Pit Fiend wasn't all that interesting. But this new one is even less so. I was hoping that the devils and demons, especially higher end devils and demons, would be more like figures you would see in books with powerful attack powers as well as powerful abilities for manipulation, deception, and tyranny such as enthral, dominate, and illusion type powers. I didn't get that.

What books are you reading? The stories I have read involving the lord of all devils (=Satan) are folk stories where farmers fool the devil.

Instead I get a Pit Fiend that is little more than a tough melee encounter. Real cool. This is not an upgrade from the 3.5 Pit Fiend save to DMs and Players who like to run pure combat campaigns. As I'm not one of those types of DMs or players, I see devils that are seriously lacking. This version of the Pit Fiend is just a big, bad combat encounter that will require a great deal of modification to use for anything other than "a do as much damage as you can before he outdamages you encounter".

In what way is this different from before? How was a 3.5 pit fiend a more interesting non vombat encounter? Aside from illusions it didn't have anything to bring outside of combat aside from skills. The 4e pit fiend has better social skills than the 3.5 pit fiend btw.

No tactical spell memorization required of the players. No reconaissance required. No thinking on the part of the players. Just go into combat and swing until dead.

I think spell memorization is more of a strategical or logistical issue but I get your point. What spells do you need to memorize? Freedom of action seems logical. Fire resistance. I haven't seen a defense against blasphemy except maybe spell immunity. You would need dimensional anchor. Those are the spells I can see the need of. That's a shopping list, not a strategic challenge.

What made recon necessary when approaching the 3.5 pit fiend that isn't necessary when approaching the 4e pit fiend?

How any of you can argue that this Pit Fiend is anything other than a high end combat encounter is mind boggling.

Compared to which pit fiend? If you are making a general statement about D&D pit fiend over the editions you may have a point. As a critique of just the 4e pit fiend I think you have to read up on the older versions again.

 

[Celtavian]

re

If they don't spread out, then they all get to fry in the pit fiend's fire aura and suffer the penalties of his fear aura, and have devils explode in their faces every round. Clustering together is a bad plan against an enemy with area attacks. Of course, spreading out is also a bad plan against a mobile enemy... kind of nasty, isn't it?

It isn't a bad plan as spreading out lets the Pit Fiend use its immense melee power against an individual target that is alone. Are you saying that a healer isn't going to need to stand next to the target it is healing?

A four man group usually has a mage, rogue, warrior, and cleric. The cleric has to maintain healing distance to keep the other characters alive. The mage usually maintains mobility, but if he is directly targetted without defenses up, he's dead meat. The rogue and warrior work together in melee to win with the warrior taking the brunt share of the damage.

So do you expect the PCs to be able to fight alone without healing support against devils and their minions? If 4E characters can fight alone without healing and spell support, then what you say is true.

But if the party dynamic is still in full effect, the party will not spread out allowing itself to be defeated piecemeal.

The pit fiend will do best by moving from PC to PC, nailing them with sting and flaming mace so they're all taking damage over time. And if your PCs don't move much, I can only assume you either have a group of all straight-up fighters, or some very dumb PCs, or you're not pushing them very hard. I can tell you that in my games, when enemy melee troops pop up next to the party wizard with big toothy grins on their faces, that wizard does not just sit there. Not to mention that many warrior-types have abilities that require them to move a certain distance (e.g., Skirmish), abilities that trigger on a charge (a lot of Bo9S maneuvers, Shock Trooper, Spirited Charge), et cetera.

No, I have a party of that function as a group. In the encounter you list above, my cleric would have cast a fire resistance spell to deal with the flame aura. The wizard would be using support spells to reduce minion interference and divide the battle field. The warrior and rogue would focus on damaging the pit fiend or the nearest target.

I would challenge just about any DM in tactics, that I guarantee you. Which is why I like options for my monsters. Because I use SLAs to great effect to the point where my players actually memorize Silence spells at high level or have contingency magic in place to erect a silence spell. My clerics have to focus on support spells or the party will die.

The use of mass Hold Monster requires the cleric to prepare Remove Paralysis to deal with the possibility the party might be be paralyzed in a crucial moment.

I like the move and countermove currently associated with DnD. I used it alot.

In any case, I suspect the main advantage to the pit fiend's ability to teleport its minions is that it offers supreme mobility. It lets them move without being exposed to the "stickiness" that Defender classes in 4E normally possess, not to mention bypassing blockades set up by the Controller, and taking advantage of terrain. The PCs think they have everything under control, the melee devils are all locked in combat with the fighter, the rogue is flanking, the cleric is buffing, and the wizard is casting from the back... and then suddenly the pit fiend is standing right on top of the wizard, and the legion devils are lined up to block the other PCs from getting through to him.

That's tactics.

Are you kidding? Don't you do this in 3.5 as well? I already used tactical movement to great advantage as well as minion placement.

And are you saying that a wizard or rogue can survive a focused attack on them by a Pit Fiend? I will have to see how the classes work. But in my games if the wizard or rogue are focused on by the big bad, they are dead meat.

It is very important in my games that the rogue wait for an opportune time for attack and be very careful about drawing attention. Not to mention a rogues scouting abilities are important to the tactical preparation of the party.

A wizard must prepare their defenses before they start attacking. if a Pit Fiend targets the wizard, he is not going to survive. So in that encounter you mention with the devils popping on the solo wizard standing off by himself, you can kiss that wizard goodbye.

I envision it as devils vanishing in a flash of smoke and fire and reappearing somewhere else in another flash. Pyrotechnic, yes, but hardly unbelievable. Or, if you prefer a more shadow-themed devil, they become one with the shifting shadows that cover the battlefield, only to emerge elsewhere.

If they could do this on their own, that would be fine. But the Pit Fiend does it for them.

Of course it's a high-end combat encounter. That's what a 4E stat block is for. The rest is for the DM to fill in, with guidance from the fluff text and the ritual mechanics. However, if you think you can just walk in and "swing until dead..."

Yeah, somehow I don't think that'll work very well against a DM who plays the pit fiend intelligently. It sure wouldn't against me. You'd spend all your time struggling around trying to get past the fiend's minions, while the fiend teleported around the battlefield, picking off the squishier PCs one by one. Or you'd huddle together in a group while the minions surrounded you and mobbed the casters, and the pit fiend stood with his arms folded, letting his aura roast you all alive and occasionally throwing an exploding devil at you.

So how exactly do you expect the party to defeat this Pit Fiend if they can't bring their melee abilities to bear against the creature?

Does the new game lack AoE capabilities for the wizard? A high level wizard can obliterate a ton of devils and demons.

Are there no protection from energy spells any longer to negate the effect of this Pit Fiends aura?

Are there no more tactical options for the party to defeat the powers of their enemies? Is it all down to damage?

What if the party does erect spells to defeat the powers of their enemies? This Pit Fiend can't coutner spells, so how does he beat say a Protection from Fire spell that makes his aura useless?

I know this game inside and out. This Pit Fiend with limited options would be so easy for a 3.5 party to defeat compared to the 3.5 Pit Fiend that I laugh at it. Maybe the classes are more limited now too, so that will balance out.

But as it is a 3.5 party would laugh at the Pit Fiend, easily counter its abilities, and destroy it. Exploding devils and a fire aura aren't much to a prepared party.

I feel more options makes tactical combat more interesting, than less options. This pit fiend has less combat options.

 

[Celtavian]

Because combat *won't* be just movement and swinging. Have you forgotten about all the nifty powers everyone has?

No, I don't know them yet.

First of all, the assumed party size in 4e is now five PCs, though that's nitpicking. Second of all, when I have a dude with a 15' radius fire and fear aura who can also cause fairly big explosions all over the battlefield, I find that pretty decent incentive to spread out myself.

This would imply that there are no means to protect yourself from fire. Are you saying there are no longer spells that protect from energy? Dealing with fire was pretty easy for my high lvl PCs.

The 3.5 Pit Fiend dealt with spells from PCs by dispelling them, this Pit Fiend cannot do that near as I can tell. So if the PCs come with heavy fire protection, then the aura and the exploding devils are useless.

One of 4e's design goals is to make movement much more important and frequent in combat so that fights aren't anywhere nearly as static as they were in 3.5. And the Pit Fiend would move so he could teleport behind the fighter to tear apart the wizard without being subject to his crazy defender powers. That should encourage the wizard to move away to get out of the fire aura and the fighter to move back toward the devil.

Ok, so how exactly are we going to handle constant movement on limited battle maps?

Do you think the wizard won't have the means to resist fire? I'll be sticking with 3.5 if wizards are reduced to glass cannons.

How does the warrior protect the wizard? In 3.5 the wizard couldn't exactly survive a harsh attack from a powerful melee creature. Can a wizard survive a powerful melee attack now?

It's like we've play a completely different game. I didn't have any of the problems you seem to indicate occurred in my 3.5 games or earlier. Movement was always important. The wizard always had to stay out of combat and was threatened by creatures that could get to him to the point where he had to wait for opportune moments to unleash his damage barrage.

Yes.

Tastes differ.

Once again, as people have pointed out, they have *not* turned the Pit Fiend into a pure melee monster. I would think his seemingly low melee damage would have been the giveaway. He debuffs the PCs, causes big explosions to pop up all over the map, and burns people with his very presence, which as other people have pointed out, is not meaningfully different than the spell-like abilities that it had before.

Is that low melee damage? Are there no longer spells to resist fire? Will this Pit Fiends aura be difficult to circumvent?

Are spells that limited that we will not longer have the move and countermove options for our spellcasters? That sounds real boring to me.

And I'm sure they can. Just not in the middle of a fight.

Time will tell.

 

[Peter LaCara]

It isn't a bad plan as spreading out lets the Pit Fiend use its immense melee power against an individual target that is alone. Are you saying that a healer isn't going to need to stand next to the target it is healing?

Maybe not. We don't know.

A four man group usually has a mage, rogue, warrior, and cleric. The cleric has to maintain healing distance to keep the other characters alive. The mage usually maintains mobility, but if he is directly targetted without defenses up, he's dead meat. The rogue and warrior work together in melee to win with the warrior taking the brunt share of the damage.

So do you expect the PCs to be able to fight alone without healing support against devils and their minions? If 4E characters can fight alone without healing and spell support, then what you say is true.

But if the party dynamic is still in full effect, the party will not spread out allowing itself to be defeated piecemeal.



No, I have a party of that function as a group. In the encounter you list above, my cleric would have cast a fire resistance spell to deal with the flame aura. The wizard would be using support spells to reduce minion interference and divide the battle field. The warrior and rogue would focus on damaging the pit fiend or the nearest target.

I would challenge just about any DM in tactics, that I guarantee you.

Pfft. Whatever. Check the ego at the door, 'kay?

Also, you've clearly demonstrated a lack of tactical thought if you're completely disregarding fundamentals like movement and positioning.

Which is why I like options for my monsters. Because I use SLAs to great effect to the point where my players actually memorize Silence spells at high level or have contingency magic in place to erect a silence spell. My clerics have to focus on support spells or the party will die.

Then what's the point of all these SLAs if all the party does is just memorize silence all the time? If your PCs are consistently getting silence off, in what conceivable way is the 3e Pit Fiend anywhere nearly as interesting a fight as the 4e one? A silenced 3e Pit Fiend really is just a boring melee encounter.

The use of mass Hold Monster requires the cleric to prepare Remove Paralysis to deal with the possibility the party might be be paralyzed in a crucial moment.

I like the move and countermove currently associated with DnD. I used it alot.

Oh. I think I get it. You're not actually talking about tactics. You're talking about strategy and logistics, which are completely different things. D&D does seem to be trying to get away from the logistical game and focusing much more strongly on the tactical game. I'm almost certain that pretty much anything resembling spell preparation is going to be gone from the game. Mourning its loss is a viable position to take, but it's not one I share.

Are you kidding? Don't you do this in 3.5 as well? I already used tactical movement to great advantage as well as minion placement.

And are you saying that a wizard or rogue can survive a focused attack on them by a Pit Fiend? I will have to see how the classes work. But in my games if the wizard or rogue are focused on by the big bad, they are dead meat.

Once again, your mind is stuck in the 3e model of having one monster being a threat all by itself. The Pit Fiend getting a clear shot at the wizard or rogue, while not exactly pretty, should be survivable. The Pit Fiend is not the big bad because it can smear squishy dudes in one hit. It's the big bad because it can teleport the brutes who can smear the squishy dudes in one hit past the meatshield and into smacking range. He's a *Leader*, the tactician and mastermind. He's Zhuge Liang, not Lu Bu.

It is very important in my games that the rogue wait for an opportune time for attack and be very careful about drawing attention. Not to mention a rogues scouting abilities are important to the tactical preparation of the party.

A wizard must prepare their defenses before they start attacking. if a Pit Fiend targets the wizard, he is not going to survive. So in that encounter you mention with the devils popping on the solo wizard standing off by himself, you can kiss that wizard goodbye.

Maybe, maybe not. In 4e he might have some sort of reactive teleport or shield or something. Who knows what kind of crazy abilities a wizard might have once he gets to the mid-20s?

If they could do this on their own, that would be fine. But the Pit Fiend does it for them.

So? I'm not sure what the problem is here. Aren't we looking for reasons why the Pit Fiend is in charge?

So how exactly do you expect the party to defeat this Pit Fiend if they can't bring their melee abilities to bear against the creature?

Does the new game lack AoE capabilities for the wizard? A high level wizard can obliterate a ton of devils and demons.

I don't know if "obliterate" is the right word, but yeah, I'm sure AoE effects are how the party is expected to deal with the dozen or so high level demons they're going to be facing so that they can actually, y'know, win. I'm sure it won't be easy, though.

Are there no protection from energy spells any longer to negate the effect of this Pit Fiends aura?

Are there no more tactical options for the party to defeat the powers of their enemies? Is it all down to damage?

What if the party does erect spells to defeat the powers of their enemies? This Pit Fiend can't coutner spells, so how does he beat say a Protection from Fire spell that makes his aura useless?

Then he burns through them, or he orders the guys who don't rely on fire damage to take out the guy maintaining the spell. Remember, we don't know exactly how resistances work and how available they'll be, but we do know that they've been significantly nerfed.

I know this game inside and out.

*rolleyes*

This Pit Fiend with limited options would be so easy for a 3.5 party to defeat compared to the 3.5 Pit Fiend that I laugh at it. Maybe the classes are more limited now too, so that will balance out.

Once again, if we look at the *spirit* of the effects rather than their raw power, you'll see that the Pit Fiend is making the exact same choices, or in many cases, more interesting ones. "Do I teleport to where I catch both the fighter and the rogue in my fire aura, where I'm doing more damage but am more vulnerable, or do I pop way over there to try to deal with the mage who's raining ice down on my minions? Who do I debuff, the fighter who has a pair of my strongest demons on him, or the cleric surrounded by 6 weaker ones? Do I blow up that demon now while he can still make attacks, or do I wait and have him possibly get taken out?"

But as it is a 3.5 party would laugh at the Pit Fiend, easily counter its abilities, and destroy it. Exploding devils and a fire aura aren't much to a prepared party.

I feel more options makes tactical combat more interesting, than less options. This pit fiend has less combat options.

Well, I refute the claim that it has less options, but even if it *did*, the Pit Fiend is not supposed to be fought alone anymore. If the Pit Fiend plus the three other high level demons he's got hanging around him have abilities that add up to equal or greater than the old Pit Fiend's abilities, there are just as many tactical choices to be made over the fight as a whole, if not more because more enemies means more chances to act. Plus, this means that it could make things like scouting and preparation more important, because even if you know that the main boss is a Pit Fiend, you don't know what his cronies are, and they could have wildly different abilities that require different choices to be made before the battle.