If the devils are how monsters will be....I am so happy

[Celtavian]

re

The only thing that is going to save the devils and demons for me is if customizing them is easy. If it isn't easy, that is going to be a huge turnoff for 4e DnD. I like devils and demons with options, especially the leader devils and demons.

 

[Sol.Dragonheart]

As an aside from the main topic, keep in mind that we do not have the full information on the new spell system yet. I would not be surprised if spells like Hold Monster are removed or significantly altered, as they are still a form of save or die (or, save or be completely removed from combat) and 4E is moving away from those type of spells.

Also, Celtavian, I do not believe the argument at hand should be about which Pit Fiend is more powerful than the other. The argument should be about whether the Pit Fiend is now a simpler, interesting and tactically viable high level monster to use in combat. And from what I see in the stat block, the new Pit Fiend will do just fine.

 

[small pumpkin man]

med stud,

Have you never used Blasphemy? Do you not know how to use illusion spells? These were effective when I ran the creature. I'm just wondering because I know alot of DMs don't know use illusion spells to full effect. My friend didn't realize how powerful Blasphemy was until he decided to toss in three Balors against a powerful lvl 17 melee party. After he owned us, then he realized that Blasphemy is extremely powerful.

Mass Hold is quite powerful. A few rounds of paralzying the party is alot more damaging than moving some flanks into place.

Yes, they are quite powerful, in fact, Blasphemy is way too powerful, if the the Pit Fiend catches the entire party in Blasphemy, that's pretty much an "I win" button right there. (assuming he has any allies at all, or his summoning worked.) Fixing Blasphemy goes a long way to making 3.5 Pit Fiend fights a lot more tactical, since doing, say, "dispel magic, quickened Fireball, quickened Fireball, Powerword stun" on the wizard, is actually vaguely tactical, in a way Blasphemy and mass hold person usually aren't.

--edit, I should have read what you were replying to more thoroughly, so this isn't a very good response to your point, but I still stand by the idea that certain people are confusing power with tactical ability, I feel that the apparent removal of area effect action removal spells can only be good thing, and see far more possibility for actual dynamic tactical fights with the new Pit fiend than with pretty much any 3.x creature.

 

[med stud]

med stud,

Have you never used Blasphemy? Do you not know how to use illusion spells? These were effective when I ran the creature. I'm just wondering because I know alot of DMs don't know use illusion spells to full effect. My friend didn't realize how powerful Blasphemy was until he decided to toss in three Balors against a powerful lvl 17 melee party. After he owned us, then he realized that Blasphemy is extremely powerful.

Mass Hold is quite powerful. A few rounds of paralzying the party is alot more damaging than moving some flanks into place.

What you are talking about is power level. I didn't talk about power level, I was talking about tactical choices. You could take an orc and multiply all it's numbers by 1000 and it wouldn't be more tactical because of that. More powerful, yes, but not more tactical.

 

[HeinorNY]

Please, allow me to post here the same post I posted in D&D boards. I'm lazy to write a new one.

Pit Fiend 4E and Pit Fiend 3.5

Let me compare the two Pit Fiends to see if the new Pit Fiend is really boring comparing to the old one.

Attacks

3.5: Claw, wing, tail, bite attacks. Disease.

4E: 4E has a decreased number of attacks, wich is a good thing. Combat is faster. A flaming mace attack is much cooler than claws and bites. He is a devil lord, not a rabid dog.
-Disease is changed to poisoned attacks, an improve, since 4E poison rules are much simpler to handle. We really don't need to handle poison AND disease mechanics in the middle of a fight...


Special Attacks
3.5: Constricts, Fear Aura, improved grab, spell like abilities, summon devil.

4E: No constricts or improved grab, since grapple in 4E is probably much different than 3.5's. Those abilities were complicated and slowed the fight. Won't be missed.
-Fear Aura stays and it's MUCH simpler and intuitive to handle.
-It also has a new Fire Aura, which is cool and easy to resolve too.
-Pit Fiend frenzy is not really a special attack, more like a special full attack due to the probable change on how the system handle multiple attacks.
-Summon Devil is now called Infernal Summons, and it's much more useful, since it's a per encounter power and more powerful since the devils receive a kind of "moral" bonus to their attacks.
-He also has Point of Terror, Irresistible Command and Tactical Teleport but I'll talk about them later.


Special Qualities

3.5: Damage reduction 15/good and silver, darkvision 60 ft., immunity to fire and poison, resistance to acid 10 and cold 10, regeneration 5, see in darkness, spell resistance 32, telepathy 100 ft.

4E: DR gone since alignments don't play on the rules anymore, devils are not werewolves so no silver DR too. DR in 4E is probably different or just doesn't exist anymore.
-Immunities turned to Resistences wich is much better, now you can throw a Pit Fiend in the Sun and he will die.
-No regeneration, but the Pit Fiend has more HPs and the HP system in 4E is different too so not a big loss here for the Pit.
-Darkvision remains.
-SR is probably gone from the system.
-Telepathy is gone, but the Pit has Supernal language, which is probably like a telepathic language.


Spell-like abilities

3.5: At will—blasphemy (DC 25), create undead, fireball (DC 21), greater dispel magic, greater teleport (self plus 50 pounds of objects only), invisibility, magic circle against good, mass hold monster (DC 27), persistent image (DC 23), power word stun, unholy aura (DC 26); 1/day—meteor swarm (DC 27). Caster level 18th. The save DCs are Charisma-based.

4E: No more spell like abilities, but did the Pit Fiend reall lose "versability"?
-Blasphemy's thematic effects, or its fluff effect, are now under the Aura of Fear. It's an aura that makes enemies fight worse. We don't need 2 of them around.
-Unholy Aura. We also don't need ANOTHER aura to handle, like the Unholy aura, but it's not gone, it's in the Infernal Summons Power. The effect of an "aura that make allies fight better" is still there. Other mechanics related to alignments are obviously gone.
-Greater teleport is now simply Tactical Teleport.
-Mass Hold Monster is not entirely gone. The Pit Fiend can command his devil allies to explode, wich is much more useful in a combat and also outside a combat, as a tool to command his servants. Pit Fiend is a soldier and commander, a kind of devilish leader, and not a controller. I'm personally glad hold monster is gone for a more thematically interesting power.
-Power Word Stun is gone, but the Pit Fiend has Point of Terror, which thematically is almost the same, but in a combat is much more useful, since he doesn't lose an attack to do it, and for the game it's easier to handle.
-Magic circle against good wouldn't be useful in 4E for obvious reasons.
-Create undead is gone. Create undead?? In some stories it can be cool for a Pit Fiend to create undeads, but ALL Pit Fiends in hell be able to do it? The same with invisibility, dispel magic and persistent images. They can be useful abilities, but are they really Devilish Thematic, should really ALL Pit Fiends have them, or just some few individuals?
-No more fireball and meteor swarms. But did the Pit Fiend lose any coolness or versability because he can't just stay there throwing fireballs after fireballs on the party? Oh but don't forget the Aura of Fire. Devilish fire punishment is still there, it's just more devilish and less wizardly.

Skills

3.5: Balance +10, Bluff +29, Climb +34, Concentration +29, Diplomacy +10, Disguise +29 (+31 acting), Hide +25, Intimidate +31, Jump +40, Knowledge (arcana) +29, Knowledge (nature) +10, Knowledge (the planes) +29, Knowledge (religion) +29, Listen +29, Move Silently +29, Search +29, Spellcraft +31, Spot +29, Survival +8 (+10 on other planes, +10 when tracking), Tumble +31

4E: One of the best parts. We don't need to calculate skill pts anymore in 4E, based on monster type, HD etc, (thank god). Pit Fiend didn't lose any skill check. All he needs to do now when doing anything skill related, is to look at his Ability Score modifiers, add half his level (which is automatically done at monster creation for obvious simplicity) and roll skill check. In his stats, all we need are the skill in wich he is trained and gains a +5 bonus.

Other numbers

We can't really compare saving throws, initiative,attack rolls, damage rolls, AC, HP because numbers in 4E are a bit different. Power ranges are different too.


Well, I really don't think the Pit Fiend is boring now. He is thematically much better. His tactical options are more related to the fact he is an infernal commander and not just a big brute with lots of wizards powers.

Did he lose non combat abilities? Which one????
He gained a new non combat power that is very useful when commanding his inferiors, he can explode them if they do not obey him. They need to be his "allies"? Well... the devil is in his domain, it's his ally, simple.
Pit Fiend: "I can't command you? Are you not my ally imp? So taste my flaming mace!"
Weaker Devil: "I'm sorry big one, my life is your for all time, I beg your mercy!
Pit Fiend: "This is much better, now explode. *BOOM* Anyone else wants to discuss allegiances?"

He still casts wish, he gained a teleport movement AND a big fire mace!


He is also more unique (and that's what I like more about the new Pit Fiend). His powers are Pit Fiend's powers now! Take a look at 3.5 Pit Fiend, what's "Pit Fiendish" about them? Fireball and meteor swarm? Wizards can do it. Diseases and poisons? nah. Create Undead, dispel magic? Is he a necromancer? Regeneration? Trolls have it. Constrict and Improved Grab? Lots of monsters have it... boooring. Summon Devils? Yeah, that's kind of Pit Fiendish, that's why it remains. The same with Fear Aura. Oh but he is a big flaming winged horned monster from hell. So is the Balor.
Tell me, what is "Pit Fiendish" about the 3.5 Pit Fiend?

 

[Dausuul]

My friend didn't realize how powerful Blasphemy was until he decided to toss in three Balors against a powerful lvl 17 melee party. After he owned us, then he realized that Blasphemy is extremely powerful.

And that was an interesting and tactical fight, was it? Because it sounds to me like a few saving throws followed by a lot of unavoidable PC death.

Mass Hold is quite powerful. A few rounds of paralzying the party is alot more damaging than moving some flanks into place.

See above. Mass hold is powerful, it isn't tactical. Of all the SLAs the pit fiend has, the only ones that lend themselves to interesting tactics and maneuvers are the illusion spells (persistent illusion and invisibility), greater teleport, and sometimes greater dispel magic. The other SLAs are just enormous hammers to smash the party with.

Greater teleport is already covered, and indeed improved upon, by the 4E pit fiend's teleporting movement--now the fiend can position itself and act in the same turn. The other SLAs are indeed a loss, but the pit fiend makes up for them in tactical complexity (not necessarily raw power) with its ability to summon minions and move them around; to inflict a heavy debuff on a single foe each round; to spend an action point for an extra action; and to inflict ongoing fire and poison damage.

It looks as though the pit fiend will fill a "striker" role. Its summoned minions keep the enemy pinned down, while the fiend teleports around the battlefield using its sting and its mace to get as many foes poisoned and on fire as it can. Pinning it down will be just as important in 4E as it was in 3E.

If your real complaint is that the 4E pit fiend is too weak, you have no basis for comparison. Until we see the stats of a 26th-level character, we have no way to judge how powerful an opponent this pit fiend is.

 

[Derren]

And that was an interesting and tactical fight, was it? Because it sounds to me like a few saving throws followed by a lot of unavoidable PC death.

Unless of course the Players are smart enough to have tactics above "charge and swing" and try to formulate plans how to avoid some of the abilities of the Pit Fiend like spreading out, casting silence, timing the dimensional anchors correctly, etc.

4E Pit Fiends only require fire protection and then you can charge and trade blows till someone drops. Yeah, thats really tactical, isn't it?

 

[Lackhand]

Unless of course the Players are smart enough to have tactics above "charge and swing" and try to formulate plans how to avoid some of the abilities of the Pit Fiend like spreading out, casting silence, timing the dimensional anchors correctly, etc.

4E Pit Fiends only require fire protection and then you can charge and trade blows till someone drops. Yeah, thats really tactical, isn't it?

? He's a teleporting fiend and can bring his friends, not to mention a crowd.

It is tactical, in a way that the other wasn't, because the solutions aren't specific (well known) spells but actual tactics.
Unless that was rhetorical, of course

 

[Henry]

4E Pit Fiends only require fire protection and then you can charge and trade blows till someone drops. Yeah, thats really tactical, isn't it?

It is when you consider that he's apparently sliding allies all over the place, blowing people up, scaring the crap out of opponents, poisoning and burning indiscriminately, and has some pretty big defenses to stay around. Really, the only thing I miss from this monster is the Balor's "explode when I'm dead" ability - if they're consolidating the devils and demons like they say, I'd love to have seen the balor's signature kiss-off power put into the pit fiend.

Of all they've shown of 4E, I'm liking what they're doing to monsters and NPCs the most. They're doing what I've been doing on my own for years -- they're just codifying it more. In my opinion, combat NPCs don't need dozens of stats each -- they need a bag of hit points, a defense score, and some cool tricks to make an encounter memorable. Everything else can be handled by active imaginations around the table.

 

[Dausuul]

And that was an interesting and tactical fight, was it? Because it sounds to me like a few saving throws followed by a lot of unavoidable PC death.

Unless of course the Players are smart enough to have tactics above "charge and swing" and try to formulate plans how to avoid some of the abilities of the Pit Fiend like spreading out, casting silence, timing the dimensional anchors correctly, etc.

None of which is possible when they're all dazed from being blasphemed every round. I repeat--SLAs like blasphemy aren't tactical, they're blunt instruments.

Although I stand corrected, it doesn't sound like a few saving throws followed by a lot of PC death. I forgot, blasphemy doesn't give a saving throw. That's a fun, tactical combat, right? It zaps you on the first round, you're all dazed and can't act, and it just keeps doing the same thing round after round while its pals dismember you. It has all the complexity and tension of a chess game... between Garry Kasparov and Forrest Gump.

4E Pit Fiends only require fire protection and then you can charge and trade blows till someone drops. Yeah, thats really tactical, isn't it?

Sure, get some fire protection and you're just fine... oh, wait a minute. You've still got a bajillion minion devils to deal with. And you get to fight them while horribly debuffed from point of terror... and poisoned... and fear aura-ed... and the minion devils are all at +4. And every time you try to close with the fiend, he stings you, bashes you, and then teleports to the other side of the battlefield.

Yeah, no problem at all.

(Also, fire protection is probably a lot harder to come by in 4E. It may well be that saying "just get some protection from fire" in 4E will be like saying "just get some protection from weapon damage" in 3E--that is, a whole lot easier said than done.)