If the devils are how monsters will be....I am so happy

[Dausuul]

Doesn't even make sense. Comparing a powerful leader devil to a human President? If that is what it has come to, you make my argument concerning the innaneness of this Pit Fiend for me.

The claim I was refuting was this:

The demons devils lost way too much if that's a real stat block for them. The Pit Fiend is pathetic in it's options, seriously. With those simple combat only abilities how the heck could they rule demons devils? It's stupid. They would have to be just like they WERE to merit such status. Heavy and varied magical options would be needed.

(Corrections mine.)

Devils live in a rigid hierarchy, and their positions in that hierarchy are dictated by ruthless, intricate politics. As such, a top-ranking devil does not need all sorts of kewl magic powerz to keep its position. It just needs to be tough enough to resist assassination (which it is), and smart and charismatic enough to stay ahead of its rivals and subordinates (which it also is). Personal power is a bonus but far from a necessity.

Pit fiends have enough going on in their stat block to make them formidable and interesting combatants. I see no reason why they have to have five zillion random SLAs tacked onto that. They will very likely have access to rituals, which seems to be where the "big magic" of 4E is at--the really earthshaking spells.

Now, if you don't like the thematic direction they took with the pit fiend--making it more of a tactical war-leader and less of an illusionist--that's fair. I can see that, and I too enjoy illusion-oriented villains. But I dare say there will be plenty of those to go around in 4E.

 

[LostSoul]

I don't see swing most powerful melee attack, slide flankers into position, and blow up a few devils, rinse and repeat, as dynamic combat. I'm not sure why you do.

It looks to me like the Pit Fiend is going to rely on movement and positioning a lot. We know that certain powers allow you to move creatures around the board. All that together looks like it will add up to a dynamic combat. More so than constantly making saving throws.

 

[med stud]

Only if the devil is willing (an ally). The power does not work on devils which are enemies.

I don't think devils will have much infighting. Intriguing maybe, but not infighting. As such, I think Asmodeus decides which demon will serve which pit fiend. The devils will be allied to the pit fiend wheter they like it or not.

Besides, willing? With devils? I don't think any devil like where it is, to be honest. They screwed themselves over and now they try to do the best of it. Devils cooperate because their superiors will destroy them otherwise.

 

[med stud]

Are you being serious? I'm talking about all the spell-like abilities that it could use to tactically support its troops. I don't know about you, but I was a strong user of illusion spells for fights. I liked having the options.

I especially read the spell like abilities. What do you think I read when I read the write up? Beside those, there is nothing to analyze really. Within a combat there aren't really anything worth using besides Hold monster, quick Fireballs (since they are free) and the Meteor swarm, possibly. All those are uncertain in a situation where you face off against dangerous resistance (=PCs at those levels). If the pit fiend wastes one round (for example using hold monsters vs protected enemies) it will probably be hosed. The illusions could be useful if it has time to prepare it self. The illusions are the only thing I see which isn't about damage and incapacitation.

The new pit fiend has powers based on mobility around the battle field and boosting companions. I see much more tactical opportunities with those abilities than cast Hold monsters + quick fireball, cast meteor swarm and then use violence.

Now the Pit Fiend seems like a watered down, pure melee fight with some flashy explosions. Where are the manipulation powers that a strong devil like a Pit Fiend would have?

I was hoping they would incorporate power uses that didn't consist of setting up flank bonuses in melee and casting flashy explosion effects. Even their skills are completely lacking. Am I missing something?

For flashy explosions, see above. If you look at the 3.5 pit fiend it doesn't have any manipulation powers either. The closest to manipulation is hold monsters and an ability to use telepathy. The 3.5 pit fiend also has Diplomacy +10 which means that a seriously commited and very talented human Expert level 1 could beat it in negotiations.

The pit fiend has become better at manipulation with the new edition.

 

[The Little Raven]

I don't think devils will have much infighting. Intriguing maybe, but not infighting. As such, I think Asmodeus decides which demon will serve which pit fiend. The demons will be allied to the pit fiend wheter they like it or not.

A guy (Asmodeus) who got his job by betraying his boss and knifing him in the kidney is totally going to crackdown on his post-rebellion hierarchy and make sure the same thing isn't going to happen to him. Thus, him placing Pit Fiends over most other devils with his personal blessing.

 

[med stud]

A guy (Asmodeus) who got his job by betraying his boss and knifing him in the kidney is totally going to crackdown on his post-rebellion hierarchy and make sure the same thing isn't going to happen to him. Thus, him placing Pit Fiends over most other devils with his personal blessing.

Yeah, that's kind of my thinking as well. A devil can go behind the back of it's superiors but if they find out they can annihalate it with a thought. They can also force the devil to speak the truth about possible conspiracies.

I imagine Hell much like a 1984- kind of society.

 

[pemerton]

They were leader devils in my campaigns with supporting troops. Given their special abilities, their tactical options were far superior to 4th edition. A single Pit Fiend could give a party quite a bit of trouble with the 3.5 upgrades.

I'm not sure whether your point is one about encounters with Pit Fiends + minions, or about single Pit Fiends.

But anyway, looking at the current SLAs:

*create undead: largely irrelevant in combat, and is apt to be replicable via Rituals in 4e if desired.

*greater teleport: in 4e it has teleport as a movement type, and some good ideas on this have already been given in this thread (plus there may be relevant Rituals here also).

*fireball, meteor swarm: replaced by Aura of Fire and Irrestible Command, so no obvious net loss of the ability to do fire damage.

*magic circle against good, unholy aura: the buffs are already factored into its stats, and the strength damage from the unholy aura is subsumed into its Aura of Fear.

*blasphemy, mass hold monster, power word stun: these are a mixture of penalty-infliction and action-denial (as Med Stud noted, they are not manipulation abilities) - in 4e, Point of Terror as a minor (swift? I assume) action seems to do the job nicely, not requiring the Pit Fiend to forego a standard action (it seems pretty likely that 4e will not have magical action-denial, and that this will have to be achieved through actual battlefield tactics, which the Pit Fiend will achieve via minions).

*greater dispel magic: I wouldn't be surprise if dispel magic and anti-magic field as we know them are gone, but to the extent that this acts as a debuff then Point of Terror takes its place.​

That leaves invisibility and persistent image as the two abilities that have not had some functional equivalent substituted for them.

I have two comments on that: (i) I don't know that a lot of people will miss illusionist Pit Fiends, and (ii) this is not really the loss of a raft of tactical options - invisibility is not very tactically complex (and at that level, won't most parties have some sort of true seeing up anyway?), so all that's really gone is deception via illusions. And that's been replaced by Tactical Teleport, which gives the Pit Fiend battlefield control via minions.

 

[Celtavian]

re

It looks to me like the Pit Fiend is going to rely on movement and positioning a lot. We know that certain powers allow you to move creatures around the board. All that together looks like it will add up to a dynamic combat. More so than constantly making saving throws.

I used their illusion powers and mass hold power for deception and imprisonment. The Devils I played already moved around alot. They could fly. I didn't have them enter melee unless it was to their advantage. Pit Fiends are not stupid and would not enter melee against high powered adventurers that would hack them apart.

My players had to use spells such as Dimensional Anchor and Earthbind to catch a Pit Fiend in place and kill it unless they had powerful missile weapons. That seemed like more dynamic tactics than creating flanks.

Seriously, how did you play your Pit Fiends? Did they just enter melee range and start swinging? I know I didn't run it this way, so I don't consider this water downed Pit Fiend dynamic at all.

Blasphemy was also a powerful (a bit overpowered) opening combat spell. I used it to support the troops and put the players on their heals unless they remembered their Silence spells. I like requiring my players to use tactics other than enter melee and start swinging.

 

[Celtavian]

re

I especially read the spell like abilities. What do you think I read when I read the write up? Beside those, there is nothing to analyze really. Within a combat there aren't really anything worth using besides Hold monster, quick Fireballs (since they are free) and the Meteor swarm, possibly. All those are uncertain in a situation where you face off against dangerous resistance (=PCs at those levels). If the pit fiend wastes one round (for example using hold monsters vs protected enemies) it will probably be hosed. The illusions could be useful if it has time to prepare it self. The illusions are the only thing I see which isn't about damage and incapacitation.

The new pit fiend has powers based on mobility around the battle field and boosting companions. I see much more tactical opportunities with those abilities than cast Hold monsters + quick fireball, cast meteor swarm and then use violence.

For flashy explosions, see above. If you look at the 3.5 pit fiend it doesn't have any manipulation powers either. The closest to manipulation is hold monsters and an ability to use telepathy. The 3.5 pit fiend also has Diplomacy +10 which means that a seriously commited and very talented human Expert level 1 could beat it in negotiations.

The pit fiend has become better at manipulation with the new edition.

med stud,

Have you never used Blasphemy? Do you not know how to use illusion spells? These were effective when I ran the creature. I'm just wondering because I know alot of DMs don't know use illusion spells to full effect. My friend didn't realize how powerful Blasphemy was until he decided to toss in three Balors against a powerful lvl 17 melee party. After he owned us, then he realized that Blasphemy is extremely powerful.

Mass Hold is quite powerful. A few rounds of paralzying the party is alot more damaging than moving some flanks into place.

 

[Celtavian]

re

I'm not sure whether your point is one about encounters with Pit Fiends + minions, or about single Pit Fiends.

But anyway, looking at the current SLAs:

*create undead: largely irrelevant in combat, and is apt to be replicable via Rituals in 4e if desired.

*greater teleport: in 4e it has teleport as a movement type, and some good ideas on this have already been given in this thread (plus there may be relevant Rituals here also).

*fireball, meteor swarm: replaced by Aura of Fire and Irrestible Command, so no obvious net loss of the ability to do fire damage.

*magic circle against good, unholy aura: the buffs are already factored into its stats, and the strength damage from the unholy aura is subsumed into its Aura of Fear.

*blasphemy, mass hold monster, power word stun: these are a mixture of penalty-infliction and action-denial (as Med Stud noted, they are not manipulation abilities) - in 4e, Point of Terror as a minor (swift? I assume) action seems to do the job nicely, not requiring the Pit Fiend to forego a standard action (it seems pretty likely that 4e will not have magical action-denial, and that this will have to be achieved through actual battlefield tactics, which the Pit Fiend will achieve via minions).

*greater dispel magic: I wouldn't be surprise if dispel magic and anti-magic field as we know them are gone, but to the extent that this acts as a debuff then Point of Terror takes its place.​

That leaves invisibility and persistent image as the two abilities that have not had some functional equivalent substituted for them.

I have two comments on that: (i) I don't know that a lot of people will miss illusionist Pit Fiends, and (ii) this is not really the loss of a raft of tactical options - invisibility is not very tactically complex (and at that level, won't most parties have some sort of true seeing up anyway?), so all that's really gone is deception via illusions. And that's been replaced by Tactical Teleport, which gives the Pit Fiend battlefield control via minions.

I used all that you listed to great effect in battle. Those spells were far more helfpul for minion support than being able to move them around and blow them up. Smart generals lead from he back. This Pit Fiend will apparently enter melee and die in a few rounds. Not my idea of a better Pit Fiend with more dynamic combat abilities.