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D&D (2024) If there are no half-elves or half-orcs will there be Tieflings (half fiends)?

Yaarel

He-Mage
I expressed it poorly.

I get that there are other factors in play that shape a society and define its culture. I'm not asking "how do I make people from Breland feel distinct from people from Karrnath?", or "how do I make people from rural Breland feel different from city-slickers in Sharn?", or even "how do I make a well off Sharn socialite different from a impoverished daylaborer from the lower parts of the city?"

What I'm asking is, what distinguishes two individual characters who share the same cultural background from one another when the only meaningful difference between them is that one is human and the other Khoravar? How does the choice to make this character a Khoravar instead of a human change who and what they are, independent of other factors? Previously, that had answer - not a huge one, to be sure, but an answer nonetheless. Now the answer is "nothing, unless you go all in on the elven side of the Khoravar's ancestry", which isn't an answer so much as changing the question to "what makes an elf and a Khoravar different?" instead.

Species is a building block, one of many used to piece together both individual characters and entire societies, and the rules that the playtest currently proposes say that it's a building block that mixed-ancestry people do not get to work with beyond picking which one of their parent species they "really" represent - no matter how many generations removed those "parent species" might be.

As a minor example, albeit homebrew: Keith Baker has floated the idea that the Elven language in Eberron is innately magical in nature and that those of elven descent simply know how to speak it instinctually without needing to be taught, even automatically updating with new vocabulary as its native speakers encounter new ideas and technologies the language didn't previously have words for. Because this is fundamentally the consequence of the elven peoples' fey origins, this gift is passed through their Fey Ancestry trait, meaning that previously, all Khoravar (i.e. people of mixed human and elven lineage) could be expected to be able to speak it, because they all had the Fey Ancestry trait by virtue of their species. Humans and other non-native speakers have to learn the language as normal, and don't benefit from new vocabulary updates automatically downloading into their brain whenever an elf halfway across the world needs a word for something that has never been expressed in their language before.

With "Pick a Parent" being the way mixed-ancestry characters are assumed to be handled going forward, the assumption that Khoravar gain literally anything from the mechanical kit of the elven side of their lineage is now an all-or-nothing proposition. Want Fey Ancestry? It's now stapled to Trance, a cantrip and a couple of spells, and an elven lineage choice that costs you everything from the human side of your lineage. Want the extra human skill proficiency? You lose everything elven about your character except the cosmetic details and a modestly better ability to survive being age-drained by a ghost simply by virtue of a longer natural lifespan - which, let's be honest, is practically meaningless in 99% of actual play. How many player characters, regardless of species, end their adventuring careers by dying peacefully of old age in their sleep?

We are losing a middle-ground option that allows people like me, who want mixed-ancestry characters to at least have the option of drawing something mechanical from both sides of their character's ancestry, to lean into how the choice of character species shapes that character. Species choice does not replace things like their background, culture, religion, etc. - those are still very much factors in play, and they contribute to the final whole. But choice of species still matters when constructing a character and the idea that it should somehow matter less, especially and specifically for mixed-ancestry characters of all people, boggles my mind. Why should choosing for your character to be an elf instead of a human be more mechanically significant than choosing to be a Khoravar?

I know it's not intended to be viewed this way, but it feels like erasure, and I'm fairly convinced that the only result is that more mechanically minded players will gradually just stop playing mixed-ancestry characters at all, because it's a choice that effectively no longer means anything, like eye or hair color. The current playtest ruleset reduced mixed-ancestry to a coat of paint layered over the character's mechanical framework and nothing more - useful for roleplay if you choose to lean into it, but practically nothing else.

I know I can just use the '14 Half-Elf statblock, or wait for a third party product to tackle it, or simply homebrew it myself, but that's not the point. I don't like the prospect of a mixed-ancestry people with a shared mechanical identity being split up and filed away as nothing more than mechanically meaningless ethnicity options for their parent species, and I don't think it's a good way for D&D as a game system to go about representing such characters, especially in light of the stated goal of wanting to promote and expand such representation.
If two species share the same culture, then they are culturally the same.

If a character happens to come from a family of immigrants, there might be some influence from the culture that parents grew up in, such as speaking the language or continuing some of the sacred customs. But often if the kids grew up in a place, the kids will have the same culture as the other kids there. Unless the immigrant family makes an active effort to preserve their ancestral culture, the kids will be exactly the culture that the kids grew up in.
 

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Clint_L

Hero
Sure.
why not?

Feat:
Elven blooded,
You have some defining features of an elf, how much visually is up to you.

gain 4 traits from the list:
Proficiency in perception
Advantage vs charm and immunity to sleep
Darkvision 60ft
+5ft move speed
one cantrip from arcane or primal list
Elven language, plus 3 tool, weapons and languages appropriate for elves(this is more cultural than biological trait)
So you are going to have a separate feat for every species? A lot of added complexity but it could work. Not a fan of prescribed cultural traits, though, like languages or specific weapons or skills. Surely there must be at least one elf who just wants to be a dentist.
 

As for the rest, I'm surprised you didn't include dragonborn (half-dragons) tabaxi (half-cat), aarakroca (half-bird), yuan-ti (half-snake), tortle (half-turtle) and such into your list.
In the Midgard setting by Kobold Press, the Dragonkin (KB's take on the Dragonborn) were the end result of Half-Dragon Humans breeding amongst themselves. So the whole hybrid thing depends on what RPG setting you are using. ;)
 

Horwath

Legend
So you are going to have a separate feat for every species? A lot of added complexity but it could work. Not a fan of prescribed cultural traits, though, like languages or specific weapons or skills. Surely there must be at least one elf who just wants to be a dentist.
If we want to have the aspect of half-something-something races, and they will not have them written all down, it's easier to write down a feat for every race that other race can take and be a half-breed.

it's just a choice of several feats, maybe dozen that can be only taken at 1st level.
Elf blooded,
Human blooded,
Orc blooded,
Dragon blooded,
Dwarf blooded,
Gnome blooded,
Hobbit blooded,
Celestial blooded,
Infernal blooded,
Giant blooded,
lycan blooded,
warforged,

this should be enough for PHB,

Then you need only Human, Elf, Orc, Dwarf, Gnome and Hobbit(halfling) races in PHB.
 

If two species share the same culture, then they are culturally the same.

If a character happens to come from a family of immigrants, there might be some influence from the culture that parents grew up in, such as speaking the language or continuing some of the sacred customs. But often if the kids grew up in a place, the kids will have the same culture as the other kids there. Unless the immigrant family makes an active effort to preserve their ancestral culture, the kids will be exactly the culture that the kids grew up in.
If a human and an elf share a culture, then they are culturally the same, but their difference in species manifests in ways that shape aspects of who they are. Elves do not experience sleep in the way humans do, they have innate darkvision and keen senses, a tie to their fey ancestry that makes them more resistant to Charm magic, and a handful of innate spells (and other traits - faster movement speed, better darkvision, etc.) tied to which branch of the elven family tree they hail from. Humans have more flexible skill proficiencies and an extra feat, and gain Inspiration after a long rest.

The choice of species has a mechanical impact when we're comparing human and elf, without regard to aspects of their background, culture, religion, upbringing, etc. that also shape the character. Why is the choice between human and Khoravar no longer allowed to have one?

Why must every Khoravar now either be fully human or fully elven in their mechanics? Why are we no longer allowed a middle ground that allows them to exist as Khoravar? Why do I now have to alter other aspects of their mechanics - change their background, take a feat, etc. - in order to express a heritage that they should already have?

We don't force elves to take a feat in order to be recognizable as drow, do we?

Feeling that Fey Ancestry is a core part of the Khoravar mechanical kit doesn't mean I want to play a full elf, or choose a fey-themed feat, background, or subclass. As of now, those seem to be my only choices.
 
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If a human and an elf share a culture, then they are culturally the same, but their difference in species manifests in ways that shape aspects of who they are. Elves do not experience sleep in the way humans do, they have innate darkvision and keen senses, a tie to their fey ancestry that makes them more resistant to Charm magic, and a handful of innate spells (and other traits) tied to which branch of the elven family tree they hail from. Humans have more flexible skill proficiencies and an extra feat, and gain Inspiration after a long rest.

The choice of species has a mechanical impact when we're comparing human and elf, without regard to aspects of their background, culture, religion, upbringing, etc. that also shape the character. Why is the choice between human and Khoravar no longer allowed to have one?

Why must every Khoravar now either be fully human or fully elven in their mechanics? Why are we no longer allowed a middle ground that allows them to exist as Khoravar? Why do I now have to alter other aspects of their mechanics - change their background, take a feat, etc. - in order to express a heritage that they should already have?

We don't force elves to take a feat in order to be recognizable as drow, do we?
In A5e, a human and an elf really can have the same cultural benefits if they grew up in the same culture. As for the Drow, if they were in A5e, they would have the Elven heritage and the Shadow Elf Culture. ;)
 

In A5e, a human and an elf really can have the same cultural benefits if they grew up in the same culture. As for the Drow, if they were in A5e, they would have the Elven heritage and the Shadow Elf Culture. ;)
I'm not talking about third party options. I that get other systems do it differently, I that get homebrew exists, etc. I'm perfectly fine with changing things up for my home table if I feel doing things another way would work better - this isn't really about me and my table at all.

I'm saying that the system WotC seems to be interested in putting in place for the official version of the 5e D&D going forward reads to me like saying "In the interest of expanding representation and diversity, mixed ancestry characters no longer exist within the single most visible place for expressing character ancestry, their choice of species and its associated mechanics," and I think that message, even if it's not the one they are intending to send, is fundamentally backwards and counterproductive.

There should be more ways to express character ancestry through their mechanics, not less.
 
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Remathilis

Legend
In the Midgard setting by Kobold Press, the Dragonkin (KB's take on the Dragonborn) were the end result of Half-Dragon Humans breeding amongst themselves. So the whole hybrid thing depends on what RPG setting you are using. ;)
But we're talking about the core rules of the PHB which says they are a true breeding species and not half-dragons. That's on par with saying "halfling and dwarf should be a feat choice for gnomes because that's their origin in Dragonlance".
 

Horwath

Legend
In A5e, a human and an elf really can have the same cultural benefits if they grew up in the same culture. As for the Drow, if they were in A5e, they would have the Elven heritage and the Shadow Elf Culture. ;)
Elves:

biological traits:
Perception
Darkvision
Charm and sleep immunity
Trance


culture traits:
Elven language,
Elven weapons,
 


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