If you changed the spell casting chart...

[Buttercup]

If you altered the available spells and the spell casting charts so that sorcerers and wizards could cast (and in the case of sorcerers could know) many more cantrips, double the amount of first level, a few more second level, but fewer spells of third to sixth and no spells higher than sixth level, what else would you do to those classes to make them viable at higher levels?

I haven't really thought this out in detail, I'm just mulling the idea over in my head. I figure you'd have to give both sorcerer and wizard D6 for a hit die, at the least. You'd have to be careful not to front load the classes, and you'd have to figure out a way to make them useful at higher levels...unless the point is that you don't really want Sorcerer or Wizard to be 20 level classes. Hmm.

Comments?

 

[Beholder Bob]

Hmm...

Increase the DC of the saves, say by 1 per 5 levels.

Perhaps allow higher then 6th, but with tightly controlled list and as rituals - TTC in minutes, hours, or days.

Make the familiar more attractive - perhaps more combat capable (cat can turn into a lion) or magical (spell like abilities). I'm thinking utility in terms of an animal companion. Replacing a familiar with an animal companion is mentioned somewhere in unearthed arcana.

To enhance wizards, perhaps focus on their specialization (the bonus abilities in unearthed arcana again) - but in addition to instead of replacing the core abilities.

To enhance sorcerers, give a draconic feat every 4 levels.

To enhance priests, give a turning feat every 5 levels, and at 8th and 18th - a bonus domain.

Bards - uh, your gonna have to kick their spell abilities in the nuts, as they are pretty darn tough relative to wiz & sorc if you neuter their spell abilities - perhaps drop bard to 4th level spells? Hmm, not very satisfying.

Keep wiz & sorc at d4 hp, BA 1/2 steps, 1 good save.

Just some thoughts.

BB

 

[devoblue]

Put a cap on the levels that a wizard or sorceror can take (max 10 - 15), loosen up the arcane spell failure chance on all armous by a flat 20% or so, give them light armour proficiency. They wont loose anything at high levels because they will be mutliclassing.

 

[Li Shenron]

Tough job to sort out!

First thing on my mind was to start from the Bard class, since they also get up to 6th level spells. But the Bard gets access to those spell levels later compared to Wiz/Sor, so it is still quite different. If it was ok for you, would you accept the idea of delaying higher level spells a little? (This has to do also with your ideas from the other thread, to allow arcane spellcasters already only at a high character level, delaying them more could be too much).

Because if you do, you could try to model your Wiz/Sor pretty much around the core Bard. For example:

Sorcerer
- spells per day like a Bard (less than Sor)
- spells known like a Bard (about the same as Sor)
- spell list like the core Sorcerer
- HD, skill points, ST can be like the Bard or modified as you wish

You can then concentrate on taking away the Bard-only features one by one (Bardic Music, Bardic Knowledge, extra proficiencies, cast in light armor) in exchange for more spells per day or known - how many is still THE open issue, but at least it may be easier to adjust "piece by piece". You can also of course leave some of these features, such as casting in light armor.

Wizard
- start from your Sorcerer results above except the modified number of spells

Do the same swapping of abilities for increased slots and spells known. Since it's going to prepare spells instead of cast spontaneously, it's probably best to give him less spells/day and more known (as usual) than the Sorcerer, but still both more than the Bard.
If you leave some bardic feature, perhaps give something different this time (Bardic Knowledge seems appropriate, but even one specific use of Bardic Music modified for flavor*).

The general results will be a Sorcerer and Wizard with slow spell access, cap at 6th, more HP and skills, and 1-2 special abilities. And of course more spells per day and known, but I'm not able to easily suggest how many (I see this is your main issue here...).

*such as non-musical and based on Spellcraft instead of Perform

 

[Li Shenron]

Forgot to mention that while the suggestion above doesn't help with doubling low-level spells known and cast, it can offer at least the advantage that it should be an interesting class from level 1 to level 20. If you "buff up" lower level spells but cap at 6th (class level 11 or 12) then you have to consider what to give at those higher levels.

If you prefer to go this other route, and keep spell level access as base Wiz and Sor, I'd think about a special ability every 2 or 3 levels after 11th/12th. Possible candidates could be stolen from the Archmage or Hierophant PrCls. Or the PC may instead choose a bonus feat related to spellcasting if she prefers.

 

[Buttercup]

If you prefer to go this other route, and keep spell level access as base Wiz and Sor, I'd think about a special ability every 2 or 3 levels after 11th/12th. Possible candidates could be stolen from the Archmage or Hierophant PrCls. Or the PC may instead choose a bonus feat related to spellcasting if she prefers.

Yeah, I think adding special abilities would be key. I'll have to start digging around for things that I like the flavor of.

And with regard to the spell progression chart, perhaps I could, as you said above, make it similar to the bard's or maybe even more delayed (but then I have to rethink the bard, or maybe ditch that class). No access to first level spells until maybe 4th level. Hmm. This means I'd have to come up with a nonmagical method of healing, because waiting until 4th level to have access to CLW will fundamentally change the lethality of combat. I guess spellcasters could have Craft(Herbalist) as a class skill, and I could come up with herbal healing potions.

 

[knight_isa]

If you don't mind going a little higher than 6th, there's the Hedge Wizard from Mongoose. It get lots of low level spells (and cantrip-based special abilities), but fewer (and later acquired) higher level spells (ending up with one 8th level slot at 20th character level). It looks like lots of fun, and nothing jumps out and screams "broken" to me, but I haven't had a chance to playtest it yet.

 

[Buttercup]

Good suggestion! And I even think I own it. Now if I can just remember where I put it....