If you could have created D&D before Gygax..

[Aethelstan]

Although D&D was created some thirty years ago, many of the core concepts of the game, for instance alignment and “Vancian” magic, have endured virtually unchanged and remain central to D&D in its current form. For the sake of discussion, pretend you could go back in time and become the “Godfather” of RPGs by publishing your own personal version of D&D a year before Gary Gygax (my assumption is that slick and flexible d20 D&D would trump Gygax’s OD&D and become the dominant RPG). What would you change about D&D? How would you make it “better.”
I’m not thinking of things like “Rangers would have d12 hit dice” or “magic missile would require a ranged touch attack.” I’m more interested in the overarching themes, core concepts and basic assumptions than were built into D&D from its inception. For example, does the alignment system provide the game with structure and moral bearings or is it rigid, simplistic, and stifling to role playing? Or..does D&D’s premise that magic is both common and for sale appealing or does it drain magic of any sense of wonder or mystery?
What are the “sacred cows” of D&D that you kept in your version of D&D? What would you toss out and why? What new pillars would you make central to D&D from day one? I’m looking forward to your thoughts and I’ll throw in my two cents later.

p.s. Attention Gygaxopiles: this thread is not intended as a dig against Gary Gygax. He is the Tolkien of RPGs and I respect him as such.

 

[BiggusGeekus]

Honestly, I wouldn't change it.

Not because I think there are no flaws, its just that the combination of wargame and RPG is really appealing and when you talk about chainging Vancian magic or alignment, you're really talking about the second wave of RPGs in the 80s. A lot of the tropes are there because people like them. You could take an oD&D character and summarize it in under a sentence. Try that with Shadowrun or Runequest. I think that was vital to the hobby.

 

[Aethelstan]

Just to clarify, this discussion assumes that the three core books (PHB, DMG, MM) of 1st edition represent the "classic" D&D that influenced all that followed.

 

[Slobber Monster]

Regarding the magic = wonder and mystery thing, it's my belief that practically the only way to really do that is to not allow PC's access to magic using classes or to make magic items. Then the whole magic system can be DM fiat and the players truely will be mystified. As soon as you permit PC access to the study and control of magic, things must be codified into a ruleset the players can peruse. Vancian magic may not be the best way to do so, and there are certainly a number of different styles and quantities of magic that might be preferred, but none of them is going to impart wonder and mystery on any player who has bothered to read the ruleset.

 

[Turanil]

What are the “sacred cows” of D&D that you kept in your version of D&D? What would you toss out and why? What new pillars would you make central to D&D from day one? I’m looking forward to your thoughts and I’ll throw in my two cents later.

If I had written the first game, without any other to get inspiration from? Well, I wouldn't have the idea of RPGs at all. I loved board games at this time, but never thought of a so brilliant idea as RPGs...

Now, what I would have done different if I had created my own roleplaying game after having got the first white OD&D box that I was unable to understand (my poor English, and its awful game mechanics)?

-- Magic would not have been Vancian. More like a spell-points system. No spell levels, but different mana-points costs, and required dice rolls to successfully cast a spell, with potential backfire. (Fortunately there is Grim Tales these days!)

-- Priests would not have had magic of their own, and I am not sure there would have been priests anyway. Or maybe taking inspiration from OD&D I would have given some abilities to priests, but not spells, something more of various abilities working like Turn Undead (after all Christian priests never were meant to use magic!).

-- Classes? I would have probably come up with a system including classes but not levels, something inspired by Runequest.

-- Races? Probably human only. I wouldn't have thought of giving special abilities for belonging to a specific race.

-- Alignment? Only for certain archetypal characters: priests, base villains, valorous knights, etc.

Anyway, don't get me wrong. I do like D&D and d20 games, and don't want to go back to Runequest. But it's probably how I would have done things...

 

[rogueattorney]

Just to clarify, this discussion assumes that the three core books (PHB, DMG, MM) of 1st edition represent the "classic" D&D that influenced all that followed.

I don't understand your question. Since D&D preceded the PHB, DMG and MM by three to five years, depending on which book you're talking about, are you asking us how we would have done AD&D different as of 1977 under the assumption that D&D had already been created? Or are you asking us how we would have done the original D&D differently as of 1973?

The former question is less interesting since pretty much every other RPG created, including the newer editions of D&D, has been the individual author's answer to that question. You might as well be asking, "what's your ideal rpg?"

As to the latter question, it's hard to imagine what someone could have come up with without D&D already being there. It was that revolutionary. The fanstasy basis, as opposed to some other genre, was pure genius, allowing for so many different things to be tossed in without disrupting the flavor. The dungeon as replacement for a game board was also genius - going to a less static setting would have been too jarring to a world used to set game surfaces.

Really, it's very tough to say, "I would have done x different or better" when we're dealing with so much hindsight. When reading the original rules and early The Strategic Reveiw and The Dragon issue I get the impression that the creators themselves were still coming to grips with their own creation. I can't claim that I would have had any more of a notion of what I was doing. And really, who's to say that a significantly different product would have caught the imagination of hobbyists out there enough to spark the industry we have now?

R.A.

 

[Aethelstan]

Rogue, let me pose my question another way. If knowing what you know about D&D c. 2005
you could go back to a time before D&D emerged in its "classic" form (i.e. 1st edition) what
would you change? Is there anything in the core themes and concepts of "classic" D&D c. 70's
that you would alter to make the game "better" as its evolved into the next millenium (i.e.3.5)?
The "time travel" aspect of this thread is really just a foil to spur discussion about the founding
ideas and assumptions of D&D.

 

[Sir Draconion]

a classless system like gurps, more point buy with out levels, skills and powers on a tree system like feats based on attributes, damage rolls like mutants & masterminds with location chart for a more detailed wound system, maybe a magic system like shadowrun that deals with exhustion takes points to learn new spells that you can cast like a warlock make spells on par with the sword that you can swing all day long, how about a way to take negitives after fighting for so long, say Con in rounds

forget alingment either you are a hero or your not certain powers gained will have a price to pay i.e. ethics, rituals, particular code of conduct ect.

armor is DR , parry rules,
i do like the action points from modern/ebberron,
that all i can think of for now

 

[MoogleEmpMog]

Standardised experience tables and some measure of class balance at all levels.

Spell point spellcasting, much reduced spellcasting overall, and spells that are essentially simple and customizable 'seeds' treated like weapons.

Skill-based combat and weapon proficiencies.

Unified action structure (ie you get one action per round, either move or take another action).

Armor as DR.

Armor Piercing ala Conan.

No racial level limits.

Strong encouragement to multiclass rather than stick to predefined archetypes.

No alignment.

 

[drothgery]

I don't really like Vancian magic, but that's not the aspect of the magic system that I'd change if I could change only one thing. I'd get rid of divine magic, and let wizards cast healing spells.