D&D 5E If you use thunderstep but teleport less than 10 feet do you take damage?

[UngeheuerLich]

Except that in order to move out of the way of teleportation and the thunder, you must be able to walk or even crawl at instantaneous teleportation speed, so my examples are different from yours.

I can also craw in the time between two persons who run simultaneously in the same direction arrive at the same position.

Playing out simulataneous action sequentially leads to all kind of weird interactions.
This is because all actions happen at a certain point in time. The instant when you take your turn, not continuously.

If you want to start there, you need a different kind of resolution system:
Every action you take takes a certain amount of initiative steps.

You start your move at initiative 17, it takes 1 initiative step per 5 feet of walking. So if you want to move 30ft, you don't arrive before initiative 11.

Otherwise, any move is resolved at the speed of light. So your premise is wrong and thus your conclusion about thunderstep is wrong.

 

[Maxperson]

I can also craw in the time between two persons who run simultaneously in the same direction arrive at the same position.

Playing out simulataneous action sequentially leads to all kind of weird interactions.
This is because all actions happen at a certain point in time. The instant when you take your turn, not continuously.

If you want to start there, you need a different kind of resolution system:
Every action you take takes a certain amount of initiative steps.

You start your move at initiative 17, it takes 1 initiative step per 5 feet of walking. So if you want to move 30ft, you don't arrive before initiative 11.

Otherwise, any move is resolved at the speed of light. So your premise is wrong and thus your conclusion about thunderstep is wrong.

Not really. You're trying to apply sense to a system not intended for that. D&D is just intended to work sequentially, with instantaneous effects being faster than those that aren't, like moving. It's a necessary evil for combat to work in any reasonable amount of time. If you try and look too closely and apply the things you are applying, you break out of combat as it was written and intended and into the weirdness you describe.

It's not my premise and conclusion that are wrong, it's that what you are trying to apply something to combat simply does not apply to it.

 

[UngeheuerLich]

Not really. You're trying to apply sense to a system not intended for that. D&D is just intended to work sequentially, with instantaneous effects being faster than those that aren't, like moving. It's a necessary evil for combat to work in any reasonable amount of time. If you try and look too closely and apply the things you are applying, you break out of combat as it was written and intended and into the weirdness you describe.

It's not my premise and conclusion that are wrong, it's that what you are trying to apply something to combat simply does not apply to it.

Ok, so you may arbitrarily decide when applying sequential resolution makes sense and when not... if that is the foundation of your argumentation, there is no point in arguing with you.

 

[plisnithus8]

And yet it does, to people reading it in its entirety and with an open mind. Yes, it hints at it, and once more, you have zero support for a 0-time teleportation with disappearance and reappearance intrinsically linked since the spell explicitly inserts a boom in the sequence.

It doesn't seem like the insertion of a boom in the middle of the Teleport portion of the Thunderstep spell is described in a clear and detailed manner, leaving no room for confusion or doubt, which would mean there is nothing "explicit" about it.
There have been many points of support listed in this thread for "0-time teleportation;" maybe the 0-support theory has the gap.

"Teleportation is instantaneous in D&D, moving you from one spot to another. You don't move through the intervening space." -- JC

As they are lumping the mechanics of teleportation spells together, no teleportation spell assumes a gap. Spells are written without needless attention to detail so the mention of teleport without attentive detail in the Thunderstep description doesn't rule out that it works the way teleport works in other spells.
"Some teleportation effects do specify that you teleport with your gear; such specification is an example of a rule being needlessly fastidious, since no teleportation effect in the game assumes that you teleport without your clothes, just as the general movement rules don’t assume that you drop everything when you walk." -- Sage Advice Compendium 2021

Only, once more, you are modifying the way the rules are written. They don't say "each creature in range" (and honestly, the fact that you modify the very simple words is a proof that even you are not comfortable with the original wording), they say: "Immediately after you disappear, a thunderous boom sounds, and each creature within 10 feet of the space you left". So clearly, it also hints at a disappearance with a space that you left, and possibly have not come back to YET.

It seems you use "clearly" to mean there can be no question, but many questions and support against it have been mentioned.
A caster cannot teleport using Thunderstep to the space they are located in when the spell is cast -- it has to be "an unoccupied space." Therefore they have to disappear from the space the spell was cast from -- there is not teleport "YET" back to that space as part of the spell. If you didn't understand that "in range" might have meant "within 10 feet of the space you left," perhaps you could go back and read it with that interpretation.

And that is your personal interpretation, you are absolute allowed to explain this in your campaign and modify the RAW so that teleport happens always in zero time, and even that fireball backwashes like in 1e, but it does not make your claims according to the RAW as you are adding constraints of your own.

It sounds like you are saying that the caster would be immune to a fireball they cast within 5 feet of themselves.

 

[James Gasik]

Rulings not Rules in action!

Swarmkeeper, my reservation about Thunder Step isn't that I think casters should be immune to their own spells- there are specific spells and abilities to allow for that. It comes down to the fact that if you can use Thunder Step in a manner where you would be caught in the blast yourself, the spell becomes hilariously bad compared to more efficient, lower level spells. You're basically trading a 3rd level slot to do something you can do with 2 2nd level slots. There are times when that's advantageous, to be sure, but imagine how less useful Misty Step would be if it said "you can teleport up to 30', but no less than 15'".

 

[Irlo]

D&D is just intended to work sequentially, with instantaneous effects being faster than those that aren't, like moving.

Whereas I think D&D is intended to work with readied reactions that interrupt the normal initiative-based sequential resolution.

 

[Maxperson]

Whereas I think D&D is intended to work with readied reactions that interrupt the normal initiative-based sequential resolution.

I don't think instantaneous actions are intended to be interrupted at all. I think that the trigger is the entire instantaneous effect. You can ready an action for a teleport, but not the disappearance. By the time you perceive the disappearance, everything else has already happened.

 

[James Gasik]

It's a valid interpretation, but it would have been trivial for WotC to say "oh btw, instantaneous effects cannot be reacted to unless otherwise stated". Instead, they printed things like Shield and Counterspell, which do interact with instantaneous effects, and never bothered to say if they are the exception or the rule.

 

[UngeheuerLich]

I don't think instantaneous actions are intended to be interrupted at all. I think that the trigger is the entire instantaneous effect. You can ready an action for a teleport, but not the disappearance. By the time you perceive the disappearance, everything else has already happened.

You are probably right, that it is no good Idea to rule otherwise. Or better said: you can try to react to the disappearance, but I won't resolve your crawl before the boom and the reappearance happens.

Which does not change the fact, that the rules allow to react to the disappearance. Actually the perceiving person may never see the wizard reappear.

 

[Lyxen]

It doesn't seem like the insertion of a boom in the middle of the Teleport portion of the Thunderstep spell is described in a clear and detailed manner, leaving no room for confusion or doubt, which would mean there is nothing "explicit" about it.

It explicitly says "after the disappearance". It does not say "after the teleport", it does not say "after the appearance". These are not synomyms.

"Teleportation is instantaneous in D&D, moving you from one spot to another. You don't move through the intervening space." -- JC

And, once more, the definition of instantaneous in 5e is ? Yes, that's right "in an instant". Nothing new here.

As they are lumping the mechanics of teleportation spells together

Where do they do this ? Is there an overarching section on "teleportation spells" that I've missed ?

, no teleportation spell assumes a gap. Spells are written without needless attention to detail so the mention of teleport without attentive detail in the Thunderstep description doesn't rule out that it works the way teleport works in other spells.

And neither does it refer to other spells. Nor do these spells refer to each other in any way.

"Some teleportation effects do specify that you teleport with your gear; such specification is an example of a rule being needlessly fastidious, since no teleportation effect in the game assumes that you teleport without your clothes, just as the general movement rules don’t assume that you drop everything when you walk." -- Sage Advice Compendium 2021

OK, so they don't put "teleport" as a prototype, they speak about "teleportation effects", so basically what you were saying above is wrong.

It seems you use "clearly" to mean there can be no question, but many questions and support against it have been mentioned.
A caster cannot teleport using Thunderstep to the space they are located in when the spell is cast -- it has to be "an unoccupied space." Therefore they have to disappear from the space the spell was cast from -- there is not teleport "YET" back to that space as part of the spell. If you didn't understand that "in range" might have meant "within 10 feet of the space you left," perhaps you could go back and read it with that interpretation.

I have no idea what you are trying to say by that paragraph.

It sounds like you are saying that the caster would be immune to a fireball they cast within 5 feet of themselves.

Where in hell would I have been saying this ?