D&D (2024) Illusion Magic in 2024

[FrogReaver]

Because you quoted it.

That makes no sense. Such an assumption isn't necessary simply because of quoting.

I want rules that work at the table, yes. And, yes, I offered a proposal that cites the PHB. It's not a coincidence that the proposal follows from the passages cited.

A. The proposal doesn't follow from the passages, at best it's an interpretation trying to be forced upon the text.
B. If you want rules that work at the table then don't allow illusions to give advantage to allies + disadvantage to enemies for the whole combat unless every enemy gives up it's action to take the study action and succeeds. If you can find a simple way to do that without the study action then do that. Heck, share that and I probably will too. But it doesn't need to be forced into the existing rules. Houserules are okay.

Your interpretation, as you've explained it, does not explain the repeated emphasis in the spell descriptions.

Of course it does.
1. You can take a Study action to examine an illusion, make a check that if successful shows it to be an illusion
2. Also, any physical interaction will show it to be an illusion.
3. In the event you discern it's an illusion (no matter which method) then the illusion because faint.

The repeated emphasis exists because 1 and 2 are different ways of discerning something to be an illusion.

If this view is correct, then the spell descriptions state a way to counter illusions that has a substantial chance of failure, but there is an implicit way to counter illusions that will always succeed.

Yes. And it's been explained by others why that is the case. It's mostly to do with out of combat uses. Though I suppose one could create an illusory segment of wall and a single 5ft wide 10ft deep door way to create a chokepoint that your fighter stands in while ranged allies freely shoot whatever enemy stands in front of him. People aren't likely to attack such an illusion.

Essentially when a player decides to use illusions they need to find ones in combat that aren't going to typically be attacked.

Further, the experts in illusion magic (Wizards) never approach the ability to counter illusions that an Int 8 Champion Fighter of equal level possesses. And the DC associated with a given illusion is seldom if ever relevant. You may believe that is what is intended by the rules, but for me it points to an issue that warrants discussion.

Let's suppose that's an issue. So the PHB rules for something has issues. That's not surprising.

Wizards get Scorching Ray and can make more attacks than fighters at things. They get true sight. Detect Magic. Etc. They have lots of ways to deal with illusions. So I'm not even sure we can say the champion is better at it than him. He also is much better at detecting any illusions without direct physical interaction than the Champion.

I can think of many ways that illusion rules might be fixed at the table (and others in this thread have suggested some), and I know that I have played with my own house rules (not those here) the few times illusions have come up in games I've run. But for the most part, they don't come up, because the spells aren't used, and I think part of the reason is precisely the problem I'm trying to think through.

Maybe, I'd love to hear one that doesn't overpower them like everything I've heard suggested here so far.

 

[FrogReaver]

Here's the thing. If physical interaction from attacks doesn't reveal illusions then:

Turn 1. Players group up. Illusionist creates Illusion of a Boulder in their space. Enemies cannot see players. They get disadvantage to hit them and players get advantage to hit them for the same reason. Also, many spells fail to be able to be cast at the PC's.
Turn 2. Each enemy uses it's action to discern the illusion. I'll assume they all succeed.
Turn 3. Illusionist casts another illusion, this time of a stone structure in the players space.
Turn 4. Each enemy now needs to use it's action to discern this illusion. It's either that or accept that the advantage/disadvantage penalty.

Find a way around this kind of degenerate gameplay loop when you remove the physical interaction to end method and I think most would be happy with that solution.

*Note: for a single small creature or possibly medium this can be accomplished with a non-concentration cantrip for 1 minute.

 

[kigmatzomat]

Meaning "interaction" is a non-action that occurs as part of another action/move.

That's precisely not what the passage quoted says.

I am not sure how you get something different from

The PHB tells us (p. 24):
Interacting with Things. You can interact with one object or feature of the environment for free, during either your move or action. For example, you could open a door during your move as you stride toward a foe.

It says during either your move or action you can interact with one object or feature of the environment for free. "Free" is not an action of its own, ergo, a non-action. But it must happen as part of a character's move/action.

Meaning "interaction" is a non-action that occurs as part of another action/move.

This is precisely the issue. Wall of Force is the edge-case I was thinking of (I didn't discuss it in the OP), in which case the Investigation roll sentence in the cantrip/first-level spell is to counter the specific case of a fifth-level spell. To me, this sounds improbable and does not reflect the way other spell descriptions are worded.

Wall of Force isn't countered, it still exists. It's not like Wall of Force prevents reading books or signs or reading lips. The "counter" is baked into the illusions.

All editions of d&d have been been less than ideal with illusions. 5e is at least consistent. Most sustained illusion spells have the same rules for physical interaction and study. Minor Illusion, Silent Image, Major Image, Programmed Illusion and Project Image all have them.

Hallucinatory Terrain & Seeming have Study, plus a variant of the physical interaction rules, because they cloak physical things, where things won't pass through entirely but can collide with the cloaked objects either "inside" the illusion or "outside" the illusion.

Phantasmal Force is a psychic-illusion that only has the Study but not physical interaction, but it also has an Int Save for the target to go along with the damage.

Then you get the big outliers of real-ish illusions.. Phantom Steed is an illusion except it's "quasi real" so you can physically ride on it. Mirage Arcane is also quasi-real, without actually saying it, as it can turn difficult terrain into non-difficult terrain and creatures with True Sight are aware it is an illusion but "the creature can still physically interact with the illusion." Illusory Dragon has the Study rule, but all it does is give Advantage to the Int save for half of the elemental breath weapon damage.

 

[Kobold Stew]

If you want rules that work at the table then don't allow illusions to give advantage to allies + disadvantage to enemies for the whole combat unless every enemy gives up it's action to take the study action and succeeds. If you can find a simple way to do that without the study action then do that. Heck, share that and I probably will too. But it doesn't need to be forced into the existing rules.

You don't like the Study action. I get that. I'm not sure I do either, but they've foregrounded it in the spell descriptions repeatedly. It appears you believe that it is included to cover edge-cases and certain out-of-combat uses. That's not the way I see the rules written elsewhere, but that's beside the point. .

1. You can take a Study action to examine an illusion, make a check that if successful shows it to be an illusion
2. Also, any physical interaction will show it to be an illusion.
3. In the event you discern it's an illusion (no matter which method) then the illusion because faint.

The repeated emphasis exists because 1 and 2 are different ways of discerning something to be an illusion.

Based on this, the only place we disagree is on the definition of physical interaction.

Maybe, I'd love to hear one that doesn't overpower them like everything I've heard suggested here so far.

And so here is the nub: You believe an illusory object that is smaller than a 5' cube (cast by Minor Illusion, taking a caster's action) necessarily overpowers things, and I don't.

For any table, decisions will need to be made concerning illusions about two circumstances:

1. what happens when you swing a weapon with the intent of doing damage: the weapon passes through, but does it make the illusion fade for the attacker?
2. what happens when you see another person's weapon pass through an illusion (or, if you prefer, if you are told a barrel (say) is an illusion): does it become faint for you if you haven't interacted with it?

If your answer to 2. is yes (= the way many play) then I don't think you are going to see illusions in your game, and that's a loss, and not, I suggest, what the rules intend.
If your answer to 1. is yes (= what I see you saying you believe) then I don't think the Study action will ever come up in play. One also then needs to decide if the attqck functions with disadvantage, if it can do damage to someone inside the illusion, etc. This will be fine for some, but it points (in my view) to a failure of the rules if that is the expected way of playing.

I don't see us agreeing, but I do appreciate your time and your passionate advocacy for something you feel is overpowering.

 

[Kobold Stew]

It says during either your move or action you can interact with one object or feature of the environment for free. "Free" is not an action of its own, ergo, a non-action. But it must happen as part of a character's move/action.

Sure. And if you want to interact with a second object, that takes an action. I think I know whyt this rule exists, and it has nothing to do with illusions.

Wall of Force isn't countered, it still exists. I

Fair enough - I should have said something like the challenge presented by a Wall of Force is overcome. .

All editions of d&d have been been less than ideal with illusions. 5e is at least consistent. Most sustained illusion spells have the same rules for physical interaction and study. Minor Illusion, Silent Image, Major Image, Programmed Illusion and Project Image all have them.

Hallucinatory Terrain & Seeming have Study, plus a variant of the physical interaction rules, because they cloak physical things, where things won't pass through entirely but can collide with the cloaked objects either "inside" the illusion or "outside" the illusion.

Phantasmal Force is a psychic-illusion that only has the Study but not physical interaction, but it also has an Int Save for the target to go along with the damage.

Then you get the big outliers of real-ish illusions.. Phantom Steed is an illusion except it's "quasi real" so you can physically ride on it. Mirage Arcane is also quasi-real, without actually saying it, as it can turn difficult terrain into non-difficult terrain and creatures with True Sight are aware it is an illusion but "the creature can still physically interact with the illusion." Illusory Dragon has the Study rule, but all it does is give Advantage to the Int save for half of the elemental breath weapon damage.

All this is true.

 

[Theory of Games]

In summation: If you're not sure, just shoot an arrow at it

 

[Kobold Stew]

In summation: If you're not sure, just shoot an arrow at it

This is, exactly, the problem.

 

[TheSword]

illusions depend entirely on the game you’re playing.

Scenario 1: A largely combat based session with goals to kill or incapacitate foes - illusions are generally pretty crappy

Scenario 2: A mission orientated session with goals other than killing folks. Something like a Golden Vault adventure - illusions are amazing.

Illusions are effectively a con, and conning someone is harder when the rest of your party are trying to kill the target. Particularly when you have a few seconds. Luckily there are plenty of illusions with more practical combat applications and I think I’m you have to accept that major image isn’t going to solve your problems it’s just one tool in the toolbox.

Regarding rules applications…

It would take an attack action to identify an illusory creature as fake. That is not an insubstantial cost in action economy. An action to deny an action is very useful in a situation where the caster outnumbers the foe.

There are plenty of illusionary cases where the party may not want to interact with the illusion - perhaps it’s an illusion of a wall of fire, or a poisonous cloud, or a filthy rusted grate. If illusions are in keeping with the place and there is no reason to interact with them then it’s likely they will stay intact.

Study action is a great tool. It’s relatively rare and so gives illusions a decent chance of success. Making it easier to spot them by using perception instead seems like a real mistake to me.

 

[kigmatzomat]

illusions depend entirely on the game you’re playing.

Scenario 1: A largely combat based session with goals to kill or incapacitate foes - illusions are generally pretty crappy

I beg to differ, they are awesome in this setting.

Silent image is a 1st level spell that lasts 10 minutes, can be up to 15ft across (Large) and can be animated. An illusory shadow or ghost can occupy a number of foes in that time. A weirdly shaped translucent floating blob with a variety of eyes and mouths that you "order" to attack using made up cthuloid names is a good way to distract/disorient/demoralize foes. Worst case scenario the enemy casters throw fireballs at it or try to banish or dispel the "summons".

It can pass through walls/floors to appear behind people and the caster can still throw minor illusion to add moans/whispers to make it seem real since those don't require concentration while lasting a minute.

Major Image can do all of that in one spell and can do Huge things (20ft cube).

Alternately, these can create a fog cloud big enough to engulf up to 9 people (Silent image) or 16 people (major image). If your allies watch you cast it while being told "this is an illusion of fog" you make behave in a very non-fog way so they succeed on the Study check they can then ignore the total concealment it creates. Sure, it uses your concentration plus your action to animate them most rounds but it's like a mass Greater Invisibility spell using a 1st or 3rd level spell slot.

And if it gets dispelled you likely got a non-trivial amount of utility out of it before at worst trading 3rds for 3rds and possibly 1sts for 3rds, which would be a win on its own.

Another option to the spells is to create an illusory magic item, like a "bottle of smoke". Major image does better because you not only see smoke but can smell it and the smoke can "whoosh" out when the "bottle" opens. And you can "toss" the bottle so enemies hear it "clank" on the ground while the swirling smoke obscures its "location"

(Can you tell I want good illusion rules so I can play an illusionist without feeling like I'm at war with the DM over the rules?)

 

[FrogReaver]

I beg to differ, they are awesome in this setting.

Silent image is a 1st level spell that lasts 10 minutes, can be up to 15ft across (Large) and can be animated. An illusory shadow or ghost can occupy a number of foes in that time. A weirdly shaped translucent floating blob with a variety of eyes and mouths that you "order" to attack using made up cthuloid names is a good way to distract/disorient/demoralize foes. Worst case scenario the enemy casters throw fireballs at it or try to banish or dispel the "summons".

It can pass through walls/floors to appear behind people and the caster can still throw minor illusion to add moans/whispers to make it seem real since those don't require concentration while lasting a minute.

Major Image can do all of that in one spell and can do Huge things (20ft cube).

Alternately, these can create a fog cloud big enough to engulf up to 9 people (Silent image) or 16 people (major image). If your allies watch you cast it while being told "this is an illusion of fog" you make behave in a very non-fog way so they succeed on the Study check they can then ignore the total concealment it creates. Sure, it uses your concentration plus your action to animate them most rounds but it's like a mass Greater Invisibility spell using a 1st or 3rd level spell slot.

And if it gets dispelled you likely got a non-trivial amount of utility out of it before at worst trading 3rds for 3rds and possibly 1sts for 3rds, which would be a win on its own.

Technically RAW would still stop those illusions on an attack as the arrow passing through them would be physical interaction and would show them to be illusions Yes, I think it's dumb too, but such is RAW sometimes. Then again, RAW keeps you from getting 4th level spell effects with 1st level spells. So maybe they were onto something and it was intentional