Illusionist Wizards - What about all the monsters that are immune?

FadedC

First Post
How come mindless undead are not immune to psychic damage?

Illusionist: "Casts Grasping Shadows"
Mindless Skeleton: Oh no, the horror, the horror! (takes 9 psychic damage)

From the Monster Manual (p. 234): "... a skeleton is emotionless and soulless". The emotionless skeleton is, BTW, not immune or even resistant to fear.

From what I can tell there is no such things as completely mindless undead in 4th edition. Skeletons for example have an int of 3 which makes them smarter then wolves. So they obviously have some kind of mind that can be attacked.
 

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Mad Mac

First Post
From what I can tell there is no such things as completely mindless undead in 4th edition. Skeletons for example have an int of 3 which makes them smarter then wolves. So they obviously have some kind of mind that can be attacked.

Of course, this just brings up the all important question of what skeletons fear more than anything. Dogs? Clowns? Re-runs bumping new episode of their favorite television program?
 

Garthanos

Arcadian Knight
Of course, this just brings up the all important question of what skeletons fear more than anything. Dogs? Clowns? Re-runs bumping new episode of their favorite television program?

fluffy cuddly bunnies of course, pink ones are the worst, shudder.
 

Saeviomagy

Adventurer
From what I can tell there is no such things as completely mindless undead in 4th edition. Skeletons for example have an int of 3 which makes them smarter then wolves. So they obviously have some kind of mind that can be attacked.

Well, mindlessness never really made much sense: if something is truly mindless, then how is it responding to stimuli?

As for what skeletons are afraid of? Whatever it is that turn undead does.
 

FadedC

First Post
Well, mindlessness never really made much sense: if something is truly mindless, then how is it responding to stimuli?

As for what skeletons are afraid of? Whatever it is that turn undead does.

Hmm yeah that always bothered me too about the whole mindless undead thing too. Or for that matter how are they skillfully wielding a weapon and attempting ot move out of the way of other people's attacks? Or understanding and interpreting spoken commands?

And yeah even "mindless" 3e skeletons and zombies have always been vulnerable to fear and cowering when a cleric was present. I guess it's one of those things where's it's easier for some people to accept a cleric doing it then an illusionist.
 

DracoSuave

First Post
It's not a big problem in the long run, for two -big- reasons.

One: Spellbook. You're in a place where there's a predominant majority of illusion-immune creatures? You swap out your dailies with the illusion keyword and go to town with your other powers.

Two: Your game has a DM. The DM shouldn't be setting up encounters where one character is completely ineffective unless there's a good reason. They certainly shouldn't set up adventures like that.

And even then, if they do, because of number 1, they can give information such as 'Your Nature check tells you that this section tends towards monsters that ignore your illusions.' Then you swap out.
 

NMcCoy

First Post
The glossary in MM states that a creature with immunity never takes damage from (thing that it's immune to) and can't suffer any other ill effects from a (thing it's immune to) attack.
Not quite - quoth the Compendium:
The monster has immunity to the stated kind of damage or effect. For example, a monster with “immune poison” never takes poison damage and can’t suffer any other ill effect from a poison attack.
After some discussion on another thread, I (personally at least) came to the conclusion that this means that a creature with Immune foo
A) Doesn't take foo damage, and
B) Ignores all ("any other") effects of a foo power that aren't straightforward damage.

Checking this against existing powers seems to validate the reasonableness of this interpretation: A creature immune to Fear takes the radiant damage from Dire Radiance, but is undaunted by its secondary effect, for example. Thus, you'd get your "Hit: XdY Psychic damage" on your illusion-immune enemies, but that's all it would do to them.
 

DracoSuave

First Post
Not quite - quoth the Compendium:
The monster has immunity to the stated kind of damage or effect. For example, a monster with “immune poison” never takes poison damage and can’t suffer any other ill effect from a poison attack.
After some discussion on another thread, I (personally at least) came to the conclusion that this means that a creature with Immune foo
A) Doesn't take foo damage, and
B) Ignores all ("any other") effects of a foo power that aren't straightforward damage.

Except that powers with foo keyword have foo effects, so the damage -is- a foo effect... regardless.

Checking this against existing powers seems to validate the reasonableness of this interpretation: A creature immune to Fear takes the radiant damage from Dire Radiance, but is undaunted by its secondary effect, for example. Thus, you'd get your "Hit: XdY Psychic damage" on your illusion-immune enemies, but that's all it would do to them.

Except that psychic damage is a fear effect, by dint of having a fear keyword. Compare/contrast with powers that have only parts of them explicitly laid out as effects of a different keyword.
 

Ryujin

Legend
If a power has the Illusion keyword but not the Psychic keyword, but does psychic damage, then I would buy that immunity to illusion would work. My feeling is that by the same logic that a power with two or more distinct damage types requires both resistances, a power with two or more keywords would require all applicable immunities.
 

NMcCoy

First Post
Except that psychic damage is a fear effect, by dint of having a fear keyword.

Perhaps so, but it's not "fear damage", nor is it "any other [i.e., non-damage] ill effect" of a fear power. If the psychic damage is a fear effect, then the lightning damage of Lightning Serpent must also be a poison effect, which seems questionable at best. (And for the record, WotC CustServ says that a creature immune to poison still takes the lightning damage.)
 

DracoSuave

First Post
Perhaps so, but it's not "fear damage", nor is it "any other [i.e., non-damage] ill effect" of a fear power. If the psychic damage is a fear effect, then the lightning damage of Lightning Serpent must also be a poison effect, which seems questionable at best. (And for the record, WotC CustServ says that a creature immune to poison still takes the lightning damage.)

Every effect of a power with a keyword foo is a foo effect. The reason damage is singled out is because there are additive effects that can apply extra typed damage. So, if you have a racial that adds +1d8 lightning damage to a damage roll, immunity to lightning would kill that lightning damage. But if the power itself was not a lightning power, it would not be effected.

However, if the power -was- a lightning power (say, the extra damage was because of an item power with the Lightning keyword), then the entire effect of the power is negated by immunity to lightning. The damage is a lightning effect. The immobilization is a lightning effect. The ongoing poison damage is, in fact, a lightning effect, because it all has the Lightning keyword.

Contrast with powers that -are- exceptions. For example, there's a power (or 5) in Martial Power that says 'Make a secondary attack. This is has the fear keyword.' The -power- does not have the fear keyword, so immunity to fear does not negate the effects of the power. However, the fear keyword on that one attack is -explicitly- laid out, and so immunity effects it, and only it.
 

NMcCoy

First Post
However, if the power -was- a lightning power (say, the extra damage was because of an item power with the Lightning keyword), then the entire effect of the power is negated by immunity to lightning. The damage is a lightning effect. The immobilization is a lightning effect. The ongoing poison damage is, in fact, a lightning effect, because it all has the Lightning keyword.
I don't dispute this. However, you are also claiming that the lightning damage of Lightning Serpent is negated by poison immunity because it's a poison effect, correct?
 

DracoSuave

First Post
Yes. Because, while it is not poison damage, it is still a poison effect.

So, let's say it did ongoing 10 fire damage. Because of the poison keyword, it's -still- a poison effect. So a dwarf gets to apply +5 to saves vs. it.

MM said:
Immunity: The monster has immunity to the stated kind of damage or effect.

That's the rule. The example is -one- instance. But, immunity is explicitly vs. kinds of damage, -and- kinds of effects. It isn't even restricted to keywords: You can have 'immunity to ranged attacks' or 'immunity to at-will powers' or 'immunity to martial at-will ranged powers'. Of that, only 'martial' is an actual keyword.

PHB said:
For instance, a power that deals acid damage is an acid effect and thus has the acid keyword.

The -power- is the acid effect, not the -damage-. It's explicit. The stuff a power does outside the acid damage is -still- the power, and therefore -is- an acid effect.
 

FireLance

Legend
Stealth Errata Alert! The latest definition of "Immune" in MM2 states that:
MM2 said:
A creature that is immune to a damage type (such as cold or fire), a condition (such as dazed or petrified), or another specific effect (such as disease or forced movement) is not affected by it. A creature that is immune to charm, fear, illusion, poison, or sleep is not affected by the nondamaging effects of a power that has that keyword. A creature that is immune to gaze is not affected by powers that have that keyword.
This means that a creature immune to illusion still takes damage from the power. It just isn't affected by the nondamaging effects.
 

Thundershield

First Post
In other words, having immunity to a damage type (fire, acid, psychic, etc.) gives you immunity to damage of that type (and secondary effects if those aren't covered by a "flavor" keyword). Makes sense.

Having immunity to "flavor" keywords (illusion, fear, charm, etc.) can then provide immunity to specific kinds of attacks, such as certain debilitating or mind-influencing poisons or psychic attacks that attempt to seize control of your mind, but the immunity provides no protection against actual damage (as you'd need immunity to a damage type for that).

So there's actually three kinds of immunities: Damage immunity, "flavor" immunity, and specific immunity. And then gaze immunity as a special case.
 

infocynic

First Post
So let's look at some examples:

Illusory Ambush (AP), Wizard At-Will 1.
Keyword: Illusion, Psychic
Damage: Psychic
Condition: (no additional keywords)

Target is:
Immune Psychic (I can't figure out how to search the compendium for this, so maybe it doesn't exist, but pretend) (normal vs illusion)
Target takes 0 damage, but does take the -2 to attack rolls.

Target is:
Immune Illusion (normal vs psychic)
Target takes normal damage, but does not take the -2 to attack rolls.


Lightning Serpent (Wizard Daily 9)
Power keywords: Lightning, Poison
Primary damage: Lightning
Condition: Ongoing 5 poison

Creature is: Immune Lightning (normal vs poison)
Creature takes: No primary damage, but the full effect of the ongoing 5 poison

Creature is: Immune Poison (normal vs lightning)
Creature takes: full primary damage, but does not gain the ongoing damage condition.

Creature is: Resist 5+ Poison (normal vs lightning)
Creature takes: Full primary damage, gains the "ongoing damage" condition, but takes no actual damage from it. This could be relevant if you have a power or feat that confers a bonus for attacking creatures suffering from ongoing poison damage.
 


Mistwell

Crusty Old Meatwad (he/him)
Of course, this just brings up the all important question of what skeletons fear more than anything. Dogs? Clowns? Re-runs bumping new episode of their favorite television program?

Anything that reminds them that their soul was sundered from their animus.
 

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