Illusionist Wizards - What about all the monsters that are immune?

[Ryujin]

Don't most illusion spells do Psychic damage*, if they are not immune to Psychic then they still take the damage.

Good point there. I don't have my book with me to check.

 

[Falling Icicle]

Don't most illusion spells do Psychic damage*, if they are not immune to Psychic then they still take the damage.

For example the Purple Worm is immune to illusions, but takes full damage from Illusory Ambush Wizard At-Will (as it is Psychic damage and has the Psychic keyword). Creatures Immune to Illusion could be argued to be immune to the secondary effects but not the damage.

Immune: The monster has immunity to the stated kind of damage or effect. For example, a monster with “immune poison” never takes poison damage and can’t suffer any other ill effect from a poison attack. (from MM)

However, you could equally argue that actually they do because they aren't immune to all the keywords.

"Resistance or immunity to one keyword of a power does not protect a target from the power’s other effects." (from PHB)

It's one area that the rules really aren't clear at all on, since they don't link the keywords to particular aspects of powers.

*Don't have Arcane Power yet but the Illusions in Dragon all did Psychic damage.

Interesting. I don't recall seeing even a single creature with resistance or immunity to psychic damage, so if these powers could still deal damage to illusion-immune creatures that would make illusionsts a powerful build indeed.

 

[Bagpuss]

Interesting. I don't recall seeing even a single creature with resistance or immunity to psychic damage, so if these powers could still deal damage to illusion-immune creatures that would make illusionsts a powerful build indeed.

Godforged Colossus

Resist: 30 Force, 30 Psychic

and erm that's it.

 

[Nebulous]

Eh, i'd rule (offhand, without looking at the books) that if a monster is immune to illusion, you can't take psychic damage. For example, if the spell isn't getting inside your head to make you THINK you're getting hit by a phantom sword, there's no reason to take damage.

 

[Saeviomagy]

Eh, i'd rule (offhand, without looking at the books) that if a monster is immune to illusion, you can't take psychic damage. For example, if the spell isn't getting inside your head to make you THINK you're getting hit by a phantom sword, there's no reason to take damage.

Alternately maybe the psychic sword ripping your brain to bits is what makes you see the illusion... being immune to the illusion doesn't stop you taking the damage under that description.

Furthermore, the second description doesn't totally destroy a thematically valid and sensible build. And when it comes right down to it, we should be trying to have fun, not screw players for making interesting choices.

 

[keterys]

Well, I'm not sure that three creatures immune to illusion screws players under that interpretation, especially since they're already going against the lowest defense with the least resisted damage type otherwise...

 

[Nebulous]

Alternately maybe the psychic sword ripping your brain to bits is what makes you see the illusion... being immune to the illusion doesn't stop you taking the damage under that description.

Furthermore, the second description doesn't totally destroy a thematically valid and sensible build. And when it comes right down to it, we should be trying to have fun, not screw players for making interesting choices.

Yeah, that would work too, but i wouldn't say the first description is destroying anything. It might frustrate a illusionist, but a corner case fight where he has to try a different tactic IS part of the fun.

Besides, when you look at illusion spells in 4e, there pretty much ARE no other effects other than psychic damage and a condition. What's the point of being immune to illusion if you're still going to apply everything in the spell description anyway?


I[FONT=Mentor Sans Std,Mentor Sans Std]llusory [/FONT]A[FONT=Mentor Sans Std,Mentor Sans Std]mbush [/FONT][FONT=Mentor Sans Std,Mentor Sans Std]Wizard Attack 1
[/FONT][FONT=Mentor Std,Mentor Std]You create an illusion of swirling spectral assailants that swarm over your enemy.
[/FONT][FONT=Mentor Sans Std,Mentor Sans Std]At-Will ✦ [/FONT]A[FONT=Mentor Sans Std,Mentor Sans Std]rcane, [/FONT]I[FONT=Mentor Sans Std,Mentor Sans Std]llusion, [/FONT]I[FONT=Mentor Sans Std,Mentor Sans Std]mplement, Psychic
Standard Action Ranged [/FONT][FONT=Mentor Sans Std,Mentor Sans Std]10
[/FONT][FONT=Mentor Sans Std,Mentor Sans Std]Target: [/FONT][FONT=Mentor Sans Std,Mentor Sans Std]One creature
[/FONT][FONT=Mentor Sans Std,Mentor Sans Std]Attack: [/FONT][FONT=Mentor Sans Std,Mentor Sans Std]Intelligence vs. Will
[/FONT][FONT=Mentor Sans Std,Mentor Sans Std]Hit: [/FONT][FONT=Mentor Sans Std,Mentor Sans Std]1d6 + Intelligence modifier psychic damage, and the target takes a –2 penalty to attack rolls until the end of your next turn.

Level 1 Wizard Encounter Spells
G[FONT=Mentor Sans Std,Mentor Sans Std]rasping [/FONT]S[FONT=Mentor Sans Std,Mentor Sans Std]hadows [/FONT][FONT=Mentor Sans Std,Mentor Sans Std]Wizard Attack 1
[/FONT][FONT=Mentor Std,Mentor Std]At your command, the shadows reach out, grab hold of your foes, and wreath the area in darkness.
[/FONT][FONT=Mentor Sans Std,Mentor Sans Std]Encounter ✦ [/FONT]A[FONT=Mentor Sans Std,Mentor Sans Std]rcane, [/FONT]I[FONT=Mentor Sans Std,Mentor Sans Std]llusion, [/FONT]I[FONT=Mentor Sans Std,Mentor Sans Std]mplement, Psychic
Standard Action Area [/FONT][FONT=Mentor Sans Std,Mentor Sans Std]burst 1 within 10 squares
[/FONT][FONT=Mentor Sans Std,Mentor Sans Std]Target: [/FONT][FONT=Mentor Sans Std,Mentor Sans Std]Each creature in burst
[/FONT][FONT=Mentor Sans Std,Mentor Sans Std]Attack: [/FONT][FONT=Mentor Sans Std,Mentor Sans Std]Intelligence vs. Will
[/FONT][FONT=Mentor Sans Std,Mentor Sans Std]Hit: [/FONT][FONT=Mentor Sans Std,Mentor Sans Std]1d8 + Intelligence modifier psychic damage, and target is slowed until the end of your next turn.
[/FONT][FONT=Mentor Sans Std,Mentor Sans Std]Effect: [/FONT][FONT=Mentor Sans Std,Mentor Sans Std]Shadows writhe in the designated area and continue until the end of your next turn. Any creature that enters the area of the grasping shadows takes psychic damage equal to your Intelligence modifier and is slowed until the end of its next turn.
[/FONT][/FONT]

 

[Bagpuss]

Yeah I agree Immune Illusion should mean Immune Psychic (and Illusion), and truesight, should just mean you can ignore the none damaging effects of Illusions.

 

[WalterKovacs]

Yeah, that would work too, but i wouldn't say the first description is destroying anything. It might frustrate a illusionist, but a corner case fight where he has to try a different tactic IS part of the fun.

Besides, when you look at illusion spells in 4e, there pretty much ARE no other effects other than psychic damage and a condition. What's the point of being immune to illusion if you're still going to apply everything in the spell description anyway?

Except you aren't applying everything in the spell description, only the one part marked as psychic (the damage) is applied, the effect and conditions that are riders are ignored. So it turns any lasting illusary effect into a single psychic attack that is otherwise shrugged off.

In general, immunity to effect type keywords are much more common than damage type keywords (in part because you can't be resistant to effect type keywords). A lot of creatures are immune to fear. Does this mean that, for example, a dedicated starpact warlock (perhaps a tiefling) is unable to do any damage with his, for example, Dread Star daily? The description is one where it deals radiant damage, immobilizes a foe and imposes a penalty to will. While being immobilized with fear, and have your will shaken by fear make sense ... it's harder to argue that you've suffered radiant damage ... out of fear.

It comes down to interpretation (see the immunity thread that came up earlier) but there are damage type keywords and effect type keywords, and illusion (like fear) is an effect type keyword, not a damage type. And while they don't mark every effect, they do mark damage type nearly all the time, so psychic damage would be keyworded to the psychic damage type.

 

[kerbarian]

Fortunately for illusionists, only 0.6% of monsters in the MM are immune to illusion, so this isn't much of an issue. For comparison, 1.2% of monsters are immune to fire (statistics from this post). That doesn't include Duergar, since they're not in the MM, but that's still not a lot of monsters with immunity.