Illusions

[LordArchaon]

You should wait till the Illusionist comes out most likely in PHB2. I suspect there since it is based around illusions we will see interesting powers and rules dealing with it.

I have this little bad feeling that we'll have to wait for PhB3, because they've already hinted that PhB2 will deal with Primal and Psi power sources, and that it will probably give us the remaining classes for Arcane and Divine (Bard and some kind of divine controller like Favored Soul). Even if in some limited way these "legacy" classes could come up through D&D Insider, I bet they will prefer to reprint them in PhB2...
So...
I expect Shadow classes, along with other ones, such as the monk maybe, to appear in PhB3.
I hope I'm wrong.

 

[FireLance]

The whole *point* of the illusionist was that it had a relatively limited number of spells but those spells could do a remarkably wide variety of things, depending on the creativity and imagination of the player involved - and what the DM would allow.

Actually, I wonder whether free-form illusions could use the skill challenge template to provide a structure for the DM to determine their effectiveness.

 

[Celebrim]

Actually, I wonder whether free-form illusions could use the skill challenge template to provide a structure for the DM to determine their effectiveness.

Well... I question whether the skill challenge template provides a usable structure to anything, but cynacism aside, monsters rarely have more than one trained skill so don't they seem just a tad disadvantaged in any sort of skill competition?

 

[FireLance]

Well... I question whether the skill challenge template provides a usable structure to anything, but cynacism aside, monsters rarely have more than one trained skill so don't they seem just a tad disadvantaged in any sort of skill competition?

More along the lines of: the illusionist describes what he wants to do, and how he is going to accomplish it with his illusion. The DM determines the complexity and some relevant skills (the player may also suggest how some other skills might help) and the rewards and consequences.

Bluff would probably be the primary skill for most illusions, Intimidate if the illusionist wants to create a scary image, Nature if he is creating the illusion of a plant, animal, or a natural rock wall (to hide the party, maybe), Arcana for a magical beast or the effect of a spell, etc.

 

[ProfessorCirno]

Besides, the Human, Dwarf, Elf, Halfling, Fighter, Wizard, Cleric and Rogue are all in the PHB - how more iconic could they have got?

Well, they could've gotten a lot more iconic if they kept ALL the Core stuff.

I'm sorry, but when a class or race has been core for over a decade, it's a bit crappy to make players buy a different, separate book for them.

 

[Lizard]

Well... I question whether the skill challenge template provides a usable structure to anything, but cynacism aside, monsters rarely have more than one trained skill so don't they seem just a tad disadvantaged in any sort of skill competition?

Well, the challenge DC isn't always based on an opposed skill. The DC could be set by monster level or type, or simply fixed by the DM. Honestly, though, I'm not sure if fooled/not fooled is best modeled by this system, which is geared more towards progress towards a goal.

 

[Mustrum_Ridcully]

I suspect that illusions are one of the sacred cows that have been killed.

I think you might be using the term "Sacred Cow" a little to loosely here. Illusions are not limited to D&D or D&D magic, unlike the Alignment Wheel or Vancian Magic. Shadowrun also features a lot of illusion magic.

So if something was killed here, it was probably not a Sacred Cow.

But considering that illusion magic fits thematically well into a magical medieval world, I don't think it has been generally "killed". But I suppose the real Illusion focus will only come with the Illusionist class, and the Wizard will only have fewer examples of illusion magic.

 

[That One Guy]

Isn't Curse of the Dark Dream a type of illusion spell? Even if it isn't supposed to be, I'm totally fluffing it up that way.

I hate with 4e that they basically took the game and divided it in half to sell the rest off later.

That's how I felt at first. Sometimes I do feel like that. Then I think about how each class is getting its own chapter... and then I think about how huge the book would be (or uninteresting the classes would become) if it were all released in one PHB. Also, the whole planning ahead thing implies that they're either planning to keep everything balanced with the first PHB or specifically planning to break the system in the future. Either way, premeditation is good with me. (/small sarcasm) Soo... most days (or the days I'm trying to convince my friends that 4e is nifty) I feel like this...

...they [chose to deliberately] concentrate and [fine] tune a selection of classes and fully stat them out, and make them complete classes in the first PHB and leave the rest for the same treatment in the second PHB.

Rather than place them all within one book and have them be incomplete, less playtested, less concentrated on and not fully established.

Essentially quality over quantity.

(Yes, I changed some things to fit w/ the grammar of how I structured the sentence. Hopefully that is forgivable)

Back on topic... I think a lot of terrain effects and spells can be easily crunch&fluffed into being illusions. A wall of ice is not really there, but it is an attack on someone's will initially - and if they believe then so be it.
(I do hope a Beguiler type of enchanter/illusionist returns...)

...And there are my coppers...

 

[dema]

I'm going to wait up until the Rituals preview. I heard that many of the old illusion spells that I loved as a child may be rituals now. Boy, oh boy. Giddy as a school boy waiting for these books. 3.5 killed DnD for me, I pray for 4e to be the game it's promising to be. DDI, perfect for me. Quick and easy DMing with little prep time, this is just awesome.

 

[Hammerhead]

sarcasm
Yep...no creativity allowed here...can't have people thinking outside the box now, can we?
/sarcasm

The whole *point* of the illusionist was that it had a relatively limited number of spells but those spells could do a remarkably wide variety of things, depending on the creativity and imagination of the player involved - and what the DM would allow.

That said, illusions already got horribly screwed over in the 3e errata of a few years ago...hardly any surprise that the new game would just go further down the same path.

Lane-"I despise Wizards, but for Illusionists I'll make an exception"-fan

The point is that the power of a series of spells (much less an entire class!) shouldn't be dependent on how the DM interprets them to act, or how his monsters behave.