I'm DM'ing a Player Who Just Announced his Bard is a Kleptomaniac Pickpocket. Crap.

[tomBitonti]

I'd say this character would get in trouble rather quickly, in a career ending sort of way. Isn't Kleptomania a Sociopathology? As in, behavior that is simply not tolerated in social groups?

A player who has to make will saves to avoid picking pockets is like a player who has to make will saves to avoid testing out traps that the thief just identified, "just to make sure the thief was telling the truth". Not gonna last very long.

 

[chronoplasm]

Idea!

Wallet Bug
Wallet bugs are a large, domesticated species of beetles used by those wealthy enough to afford them as protection against pickpockets.
When a wallet bug first hatches, the first thing it should see in life is its master's hand, so that it will identify it as its mother. From that hand, the master will feed the wallet bug daily in order to maintain its trust.
The master keeps the wallet bug in his or her purse where the bug stays warm and snug. The wallet bug treats the purse as a nest, and it will protect this nest and its contents against intruders.
Whenever an unrecognized hand reaches into the purse, the wallet bug will clap down with its powerful jaws and let out a high-pitched shriek as an alarm.

 

[Umbran]

Isn't Kleptomania a Sociopathology? As in, behavior that is simply not tolerated in social groups?

Technically, real kleptomania is the inability to resist the urge to hoard or collect things, usually of little value. A kleptomaniac normally isn't considering the monetary value of the things he or she is taking, and is unlikely to sell them or spend them after acquiring them. It is thought by some to be similar or related to obsessive-compulsive behavior.

I don't believe it is normally thought of as a sociopathology. Akleptomaniac is more likely to collect pens and rolls of tape than other people's money or valuables.

 

[Aberzanzorax]

Yup, Umbran is correct.

I'm an MA in clinical psychology working toward my doctorate (just a dissertation and internship to go).

From this webpage (but also from the DSM...I don't know if I can copy the DSM, but quoting a web page seems fine.)

http://www.lrwalker.net/diagnostic-criteria-for-31232-kleptomania.htm

Diagnostic criteria for 312.32 Kleptomania

A. Recurrent failure to resist impulses to steal objects that are not needed for personal use or for their monetary value.

B. Increasing sense of tension immediately before committing the theft.

C. Pleasure, gratification, or relief at the time of committing the theft.

D. The stealing is not committed to express anger or vengeance and is not in response to a delusion or hallucination.
E. The stealing is not better accounted for by Conduct Disorder, a Manic Episode, or Antisocial Personality Disorder.


Sociopathy is actually an extreme form of Antisocial Personality disorder, hence it disqualifies someone from having kleptomaina.


An important note about Kleptomania is that the stealing is ego-dystonic (which means that the behavior is unpleasant and not enjoyable for the person doing it). They don't want to steal, but can't help it.


Though, Kleptomania is about the act of taking, specifically...not about saving. Compulsive hoarding (saving/being unable to get rid of things) is another consideration, which is likely to be a discrete diagnosis in DSM-V. One could have both kleptomania and compulsive hoarding, which would be a very unfortunate pair of comorbid diagnoses.

 

[joethelawyer]

I think you're going about it all wrong.

You should have him steal plot devices and hooks all over the place. Have him steal evidence of crimes... wanted by half a dozen factions involved. Let him nab the scroll that summons outrageously powerful demons, but doesn't bind them. Have half the stuff he pilfers lead to dire consequences for the party, the city, and the world.

Oh sure, put him in a world of hurt when he gets caught, but have the successes become legendary.

PS

That's a damn good idea. Thx man.

 

[joethelawyer]

Ok, so it works like this:

Wandering into the astral sea and killing githyanki and their dragon pets - sensible.

Stealing rolls of twine and copper pieces from city folk - deadly and stupid.

I guess a DM can rationalize anything in his world, but this seems odd. The bottom line here I think is that you, as the DM, just don't like the choice of "adventuring" that this player is making. You'd rather him destroy the One Ring or Save the Princess or what-have-you. Your choices of what constitutes "adventure" shouldn't be considered any more silly than his. Frankly, I think you should be grateful that your player takes enough of an interest in the campaign world that he's actually motivated to do *something* with his character other than sit around and wait to be sent on a mission by an NPC.

Granted, swiping things from NPCs can be a little puckish and juvenile - but I'd give it a fair shake. There are plenty of adventure hooks, maps and stuff, that this can lead to. Heck - if his fame as a pickpocket gets out, he could be hired by people to get things back for them. The best thing is probably just let it run it's course - the NPCs aren't real people so no one's getting hurt. I think it's good practice for a DM to not be too judgemental about how players want to play the game. (Of course inter-player conflict is another issue - I'm assuming his targets will be NPCs.)

We're playing a way different campaign than normally played. My blog link below has a lot more info, but basically the group is 3 bards in the medieval equivalent of a rock band who just want to play good gigs and get laid. This new klepto thing is a recent wrinkle I am trying to fit into the concept. I'm not judging it, just trying to figure out how to fit it in.

 

[joethelawyer]

Yup, Umbran is correct.

I'm an MA in clinical psychology working toward my doctorate (just a dissertation and internship to go).

From this webpage (but also from the DSM...I don't know if I can copy the DSM, but quoting a web page seems fine.)

Diagnostic Criteria for 312.32 Kleptomania | Lori Riddle-Walker MFT, Treating OCD and Related Disorders, San Diego

Diagnostic criteria for 312.32 Kleptomania

A. Recurrent failure to resist impulses to steal objects that are not needed for personal use or for their monetary value.

B. Increasing sense of tension immediately before committing the theft.

C. Pleasure, gratification, or relief at the time of committing the theft.

D. The stealing is not committed to express anger or vengeance and is not in response to a delusion or hallucination.
E. The stealing is not better accounted for by Conduct Disorder, a Manic Episode, or Antisocial Personality Disorder.


Sociopathy is actually an extreme form of Antisocial Personality disorder, hence it disqualifies someone from having kleptomaina.


An important note about Kleptomania is that the stealing is ego-dystonic (which means that the behavior is unpleasant and not enjoyable for the person doing it). They don't want to steal, but can't help it.


Though, Kleptomania is about the act of taking, specifically...not about saving. Compulsive hoarding (saving/being unable to get rid of things) is another consideration, which is likely to be a discrete diagnosis in DSM-V. One could have both kleptomania and compulsive hoarding, which would be a very unfortunate pair of comorbid diagnoses.

Thats good info to have. Thx

 

[Skallgrim]

If this character is really a kleptomaniac, and actually has difficulty controlling his urges to steal from others, it stands a real chance of being a major factor in the campaign (for good or ill, depending on your group). You have a character with a serious personality disorder/madness/behavioral problem, so it will have to be a major story factor.

If the character is just greedy/curious/incorrigible, I can't really see a problem with it. Depending on your group, you can play this for thrills, or clues, or even for humor. I really can't see needing a chart; as a DM, you have to wing so much stuff anyway that I think you can probably just make up appropriate stuff off the top of your head.

I have a related behavior with the rogue in our group. She is extremely "loot obsessive". She wants to know what the enemies were wearing, what was in their pockets, what gears she removed from the trap, what arcane components she yanked out of the ritual circle, what every object on display in the store looks like, etc.

Not that she always, or even often, tries to steal them. It just, I think, makes her feel that the world is more real by exploring it with such specificity.

 

[Tewligan]

I think I have a chart that may help you out, Joe - check your Yahoo email.

 

[TheNovaLord]

Id say

"Ok, thats a great character concept, and would be brilliant in a different game system or campaign, where you can use this flaw. Savage worlds for example. As it is where playing D&D where the party are heroes and dont have such flaws manifest. More importnatly this is a team game. we have gathered here to play as a party. Good as this concept is it doesnt fit with what we are trying to create with this campaign."

must tether in the needs of the one, to help the many or some such mush.

Im currently GMing a rolemaster campaign where the party are basically a grim n gritty band of thieves. It could easily works out as me GMing 6 solos adventures at a time, but everyone realise spot light hogging isnt great and neither is robbing everyone all the time. It may well be excellently in character but isnt condusive to team play, in theis instance.

EDIT:: OK: just read the travelling bard bit, so my post doesnt help at all.