D&D 4E Imaginary 4E ideas - what would you like to see ?

[Frostmarrow]

Fighter - best melee fighter, master of two weapons
Barbarian - best damage absorber, master of two handed weapons
Rogue - master of precise strikes and sneak attacks
Knight - social, good saves, master of defense
Monk - good saves, master of unarmed and improvised combat
Wizard - arcane spellcaster
Cleric - divine spellcaster, turns undead
Paladin - social , good saves, smiter, turns undead
Bard - social, music, weapon finesse
Ranger - good saves, master of ranged combat
Druid - divine spellcaster, shapechanger

Each class should have a number of feat-like abilities that can be taken in any order. A 20th level something is complete and thus knows every trick in the book. Two low level rogues can be vastly different from one another. Two 20th level rogues are very much alike.

Multiclassing is almost free. The only drawback is that all classes begins with BAB +0 (except fighter) which means that you "lose" one BAB for each extra class (beyond one). The best BAB in the game belongs to a single class fighter. A fighter2/barbarian1 has BAB +2. A knight1/ranger1/rogue1 has BAB +0.

No skills but six saves. You are free to act as you please but need to make saving throws if threatened. I.e. If your Int is 3 you can still play intelligently, however your Int 3 governs you saving throws versus maze-spells and riddles (and no of lang).

No temporary modifiers in combat, no facing, no AoOs.

Meh. Who cares?

 

[maddman75]

Yeah, its a repeat thread, but its a good one.

I like the idea of the classes having a list of abilities you can choose from. I'd like to see more of that for all the classes.

I'd like to see them go to a multi-tiered system, to appeal to different types of gamers. The Basic system would just be the basic framework, assume no minis, and rely heavily upon DM fiat for much of the game. Advanced would have more rules in place, about equal to 3e now. Expert would have all kinds of extra rules and options, kind of like Unearthed Arcana. This would take some game design magic to get the three versions to be compatible and balanced, but you could always ignore rules you don't need.

Magic I'd like to see something dynamic. I really don't need a few hundred specialty-case rules to look up in the middle of the game. Something effects based would be a nice option.

 

[Belen]

assume no minis, and rely heavily upon DM fiat for much of the game.

I think hell would freeze over before Hasbro allowed them to take the minis away from the game. 4e will most likely list movement in number of squares rather than feats combat will be much closer to the D&D Minis rules.

 

[Aesmael]

4E Threads always remind me of those times in astrobiology classes and texts where speculation goes on about what qualities alien (or intelligent) life might/should have. People tend to have wildly varying ideas about what is required or desirable.

There may never be any conclusive result of such, but at least it is interesting/fun to watch.

 

[spider_minion]

I like the idea of the classes having a list of abilities you can choose from. I'd like to see more of that for all the classes.

I think this is a great idea. I'd like to see only 4 to 6 base classes, but each class would have an extensive list of abilities to choose from. There wouldn't be a paladin, for example, but the paladin's abilities would be rolled up into the cleric and fighter lists. Many of the classes (like paladin, bard, and ranger) could be recreated with smart multiclassing.

Instead of having a proliferation of new base and variant classes, publishers could just make new ability lists. They'd fit a lot easier into an existing game without things getting too messy.

Genuinely unique non-core classes, such as the psion, could be introduced in their own suppliment with full ability lists.

Don't know how prestige classes would function, if they would be necessary at all.

In effect, D&D would steal the best elements of d20 Modern.

Oh, and a new magic system is a must.

 

[heirodule]

revamp "energies"

I'd like to see a revamp of the energy types in 4e.

They shouldn't be as substitutable as they are right now.

Acid arrow is supposed to conjure some real acid, which eats away at stuff for the duration. You shouldn't be able to substitute cold, because cold doesn't eat away at stuff.

Cold and fire should exist as energies that are substitutable. They should always be evocations. Fire should always set things on fire. cold should lower hardness.

Acid should be its own thing, and always a conjuration. It should damage objects more easily.

electricity should be its own thing, an evocation. It should stun the living.

sonic should be its own thing, evocation. It should do much less damage as an energy and deafen. More powerful sonic spells should be able to directly shatter things with greater and greater hardness.

the orb spells should be done away with as no-SR conjurations.

And golems should have real spell immunity

 

[D+1]

I'd like to see them go to a multi-tiered system, to appeal to different types of gamers.

Which basically makes it an attempt at a universal system and the inevitable result is that it would be capable of appealing to a lot of different gamers looking for a wide variety of gaming experiences - but then is jack-of-all-trades and master of none. It then in turn FAILS to attract the wide variety of differnt gamers who go with systems DEDICATED to the particular type of gaming they want.

The Basic system would just be the basic framework, assume no minis, and rely heavily upon DM fiat for much of the game.

Then take Diaglo's repetitive advice and just go with OD&D; or if miniatures won't make you puke then the new "Basic" system (or whatever it's called, but it already exists).

Advanced would have more rules in place, about equal to 3e now. Expert would have all kinds of extra rules and options, kind of like Unearthed Arcana.

Or like 3E with use of any 3rd party source material, Complete handbooks, etc., etc.... in other words - what we have now?

This would take some game design magic to get the three versions to be compatible and balanced, but you could always ignore rules you don't need.

You mean - just like you can now? Honestly, so far I'm not seeing anything "4th edition" in what you're proposing.

Magic I'd like to see something dynamic. I really don't need a few hundred specialty-case rules to look up in the middle of the game. Something effects based would be a nice option.

Magic, IMO, is probably the one area of the game that still has room for heavy improvement. Although many of the 3E rules (stacking/nonstacking effects and bonuses, etc) have eliminated a lot of problems they've also introduced a lot of problems. Even a casual glance at message boards reveals that the vast variety of magical effects and how they mesh with each other remains the single biggest problem area. That's even within the core rules, not the really insane problems you get when mixing editions or third party sources that are unconcerned with maintaining a true balance with the core rules. The vast amounts of errata we get regarding spells and STILL we get DM's rewriting them, nerfing them, house-ruling them, and misunderstanding how to sort it all out.

Yep, the magic system could be MUCH tighter yet, although largely I think it would be a matter of VERY CAREFULLY writing each spell with seperate, CLEAR, unmistakeable descriptive and Game-Rule-Effect text portions.

 

[Tortoise]

I enjoy this type of speculation no matter how many new threads it spawns.

Now ... about 4E and some ideas spinning through my dusty ol' noggin.

4 core classes to which you add templates to create the first level character. Then as the character developes through levels you have a framework from which to build nuanced designs adding feats and skills to fit the flavor you're seeking within the guidance of the base class and template framework. If you want a melee capable wizard you can have one right from the start, etc. By adding feats and skills you change the character without multi-classing.

All core classes have the same number of feats and skill points. The templates chosen can give extra feats/points/etc.

Example: Joe wants a fighter-mage so he chooses the Warrior base class which gives him higher starting hit points, better bab, and physically based saves. He then attaches the wizard template that opens him up to arcane spellcasting aptitude. He then spends his feats and skill points to flesh the character out.

If instead he wanted a heavy armor wearing knight style fighter he would choose Warrior core class and the Knight template to effectively build the fighter class we currently have.

Should he choose to build a Paladin style character he would actually have several ways to go about it using a couple possible core classes with different templates and then building out over time with feats and skills.

A method like this would give a greater variety of development paths and turn "prestige" back to something other than a multi-class option. You want someone to become part of a prestigeous group, the DM can open up a line of cultural feats to choose from only taught by that group and only offered to those they want in. Situations in the campaign make granting of special capabilities to a PC by a divine source appropriate, the DM again opens up those abilities and feats to the PC.

Thoughts?














Everyone should have skill points

 

[Viktyr Gehrig]

In other words, you want the pre-3E multiclassing system.

Close.

The 1e/2e multiclasses were cool, but each class was still more or less an archetype unto itself. I'm thinking more along the lines that each archetype would be created by merging two proto-classes-- such as forming the Knight or Samurai out of Fighter/Aristocrat, or the Bounty Hunter out of Ranger/Rogue.

 

[Arcane Runes Press]

A new way to gain skills, and a ramping up of skills for all classes (yeah, still classes, cos' the peoples like dem). Essentially, skill points would come in two stages during initial character creation - in a way that combines Blue Rose's skill system with the current system.

Stage 1) Everybody spends their skills known slots to buy the skills they want to be favoured - the skill list would be open to all, but depending upon your archetype, you'd have to expend 1or 2 slots to pick up skills as favored.

So, for example, a wizard could pick up Knowledge (arcana) for 1 slot, or spend 2 slots to get Intimidation as a favoured skill. Likewise, a fighter could spend 1 slot to pick up Intimidation, or 2 to gain access to Tumble.

Stage 2) Spend skill points at each level as normal, with a varying amount of skill points depending upon class. Fighters might have 4, a rogue 10. Favoured skills are 1/1, and other skills can be purchased 2/1. At the same time, keeping the raised cost for non-favoured skills allows for picking up the odd rank for fun, or to fill an immediate need that wasn't envisioned at the time of character creation.

(Obviously, this is just a rough sketch, but you get the idea).

In other words, I'm interested in giving classes better access to a diverse bundle of skills, to allow for more focused creation of archetypes, and reduce the need to multiclass to efficiently pick up a skill you think critical for your character's concept.


I'd also revamp the spell system to be a bit more freeform, and more conducive to spell breadth - this would reduce the need for hundreds of new spells, many of which are minor variations on a common theme.


I'd also restructure classes so they're a bit more open - still channeled to some degree, but with fewer locked in abilities. I'd replace the locked in abilities with multi-choice options, to allow for more focused character themes. This would reduce the need for theme-channeling PrCs.


Finally, I'd like to see my name somewhere in the book - and, you know, not listed under "Playtesting" or written on the inside cover with a #2 pencil. Unattainable goals are the best sort*


Patrick Y.

*Like my dream to be Batman