Immediate Actions *can't* be used when flat-footed?

[satori01]

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Admit it. The system is just broken here, and there's NO quick patch. :\

I am not sure it is a bad as you make it out to be. Lets substitute the word "Surprised" for Flat Footed...w/o the surprise round rules connotation. In essence the real world equivalent of Flat Footed is being surprised. I would say I do not walk around in a surprised state all day long. Sometimes I detect things before they happen, sometimes I am not paying attention, and sometimes something surprising happens, but for the most part I say I am able to reasonably react to my environment.

I think most people are the same way, thus I would say the rules interpretation of everyone is Flat Footed all the time is bogus.

Traps are an interesting case because is a trap combat? A monster lying in wait is an easy case, player gets a spot check, which more than likely DM rolls in secret, player fails spot check, monster attacks, hits, has a poison similar to symbol of insanity, and player can not use the immediate action, because he is Surprised.

Most players will accept that scenario because they have a chance to avoid the results, (spot check, AC, monster has to hit, saving throw etc). Traps bypass alot of that due to the silly Trapfinding restriction.

I have a condition in my game I term "Surprising". Traps are assumed to have the "Surprising" condition, which basically means the target will be minus dex. The nice thing about this is it is not in the hands of the receipent. Thus on the first round of combat, you are not flat footed, but you might be on the receiving end of of a few "Surprising" attacks if you rolled poorly for initiative.

This lets those with Immediate actions use them w/o the first round exception for being Flat Footed, and does not let someone use Immediate reactions to remove being Flat Footed.

 

[pawsplay]

Why are immediate actions not allowed when you are flat-footed? I've never noticed that before, and it doesn't seem to do anything for the game but cause problems. Are there any ways in which this is a useful rule?

 

[Nail]

Why are immediate actions not allowed when you are flat-footed? I've never noticed that before, and it doesn't seem to do anything for the game but cause problems. Are there any ways in which this is a useful rule?

Yes, there are ways in which this is a useful rule.

• Taking an action removes the flat-footed condition from the person who acted.
• Taking an immediate action can be done at any time, even when it is not your turn.
• So if you are flat-footed, you could take an immediate action to remove your flat-footed condition. Cast Feather Fall, for instance.

 

[Nail]

Another example:

A conjurer has the alternate class ability "abrupt jaunt" from the PH II that allows him to teleport a short distance as an immediate action.

Said conjurer is surprised by an assassin. The assassin gets a surprise round, during which the conjurer is flat-footed.

If immediate actions could be used when flat-footed, then the conjurer could use the abrupt jaunt ability before the assassin attacks, and thus no longer be flat-footed (since the conjurer has now acted during combat). Of course, the conjurer is also now 10 feet away, thanks to his abrupt jaunt ability.

I'll note here that the text in the PH II (page 68) also says that the ability cannot be used if the conjurer is unaware of an attack, and elaborates that with an invisible rogue example. I'd argue that even when you are flat-footed, you are aware; you are just unable to act.

 

[The Souljourner]

Yes, there are ways in which this is a useful rule.

• Taking an action removes the flat-footed condition from the person who acted.
• Taking an immediate action can be done at any time, even when it is not your turn.
• So if you are flat-footed, you could take an immediate action to remove your flat-footed condition. Cast Feather Fall, for instance.

Well, sorta. The flat footed rules were created before immediate actions existed, and it's obvious an interpretation such as "any action you take breaks flatfootedness" is obviously not in the spirit of the rules, which is why I suggested a revision of the flat footed rules to clarify.

-Nate

 

[Caliban]

Has this really been a problem for people?

 

[Nifft]

If we're allowing ToB:Bo9S, then flat-footed applies to more cases than just the first round of combat.

The earliest one I can find is Sapphire Nightmare Blade (DM/Strike) -- Concentration check renders target flat-footed against your attack, and you deal an extra +1d6 damage.

Thus, Immediate action counters can't be used to defend against Sapphire Nightmare Blade. And that's nice, since it's not particularly powerful otherwise.

Cheers, -- N

 

[Nail]

Has this really been a problem for people?

For supplements that use Immediate Actions (like ToB:Bo9S, as Nifft mentioned), the answer is "a bit".

 

[Caliban]

I suppose you get an odd corner case with the "Grease" (or any balancing situation) spell as well - If you cast grease under somone and they make their save, they are now balancing (and thus flat-footed) and cannot do immediate actions.

If they fail their save, they are prone but not balancing, and can do immediate actions.

I see that as an artifact of the balancing rules more than anything else though.

 

[Diggus Rex]

Has this really been a problem for people?

I wondered the same thing.

Besides getting use to the new rule of Immediate actions, no problem with my group regarding it.

Flat-footedness has always been handled with the various legal options: ranks in spot/listen even if cross classed, Alertness feat, Improved Initiative, Rogues on trap sweep 10ft ahead of the party for every -1 of the biggest armor check penalty.

We did houserule that BAB can be replace skill ranks for Sense Motive vs Feint in combat.