Immediate Actions outside combat

[Thanee]

How would you go about adjudicating when you can use an Immediate Action outside of a combat situation (the importance of this is based on the fact, that you cannot use Immediate Actions when you are flat-footed)?

For example, you fall into a hidden trap door. Can you cast Feather Fall (which has been "errataed" to be an Immediate Action, AFAIK)?

Bye
Thanee

 

[irdeggman]

If you are not in a combat round you can't use any actions (technically).

I rule that your turn starts when you start to fall (your movement is always resolved on your turn in the initiative order. And thus you are no longer flat-footed when you start to fall.

The round should start when the trap is sprung (traps get a place in in the initiative order). So the trap could get a "surprise" round.

But by my ruling you don't start to fall until your turn in the initiative order (or at least you don't actually start to move until then). Color text can have you "start to fall" but no actual movement.

 

[akbearfoot]

I thought it was the other way around...Flat footed is a condition that applies only during the first round of combat...not all the time while your walking around... it seems to be explained poorly in the books and it doesen't mention people being flat footed during surprise rounds.

None of my game groups play that way though...And if you get to act in a surprise round then you are no longer flat footed....as opposed to not being flat footed during surprise and then BECOMING flat footed in the first round of combat.

Feather fall even says you can cast it if you fall unexpectedly. Isn't that kinda the point of the spell since 1st edition?...

 

[Thurbane]

Spells like Feather Fall would be almost completely useless if you couldn't use them outside of combat.

I like akbearfoot's take on it.

 

[irdeggman]

I thought it was the other way around...Flat footed is a condition that applies only during the first round of combat...not all the time while your walking around... it seems to be explained poorly in the books and it doesen't mention people being flat footed during surprise rounds.

None of my game groups play that way though...And if you get to act in a surprise round then you are no longer flat footed....as opposed to not being flat footed during surprise and then BECOMING flat footed in the first round of combat.

Feather fall even says you can cast it if you fall unexpectedly. Isn't that kinda the point of the spell since 1st edition?...

Because it says that you are considered flat-ffoted until your turn in the initiative order. If no initiative order then you can't have a turn yet.

Flat-Footed: At the start of a battle, before you have had a chance to act (specifically, before your first regular turn in the initiative order), you are flat-footed. You can’t use your Dexterity bonus to AC (if any) while flat-footed. Barbarians and rogues have the uncanny dodge extraordinary ability, which allows them to avoid losing their Dexterity bonus to AC due to being flat-footed.

A flat-footed character can’t make attacks of opportunity.

Which is why I like my interpretation. You don't start to fall until your turn in the initiative order (when all of your movement is resolved) and thus since it is now your turn you are no longer considered flat-footed.

 

[Shin Okada]

If you disallow using immediate actions outside combat because PCs are always being flat-footed until they take the first action in a combat, in the same logic, other action types should be disallowed, too.

That means, you can never cast spells or use most of the skills outside combat. You can't cast Mage Armor outside combat because you cannot take a standard action for it. You can never apprise an item outside combat, because the Action entry says it takes 10 consecutive full-round actions. It is silly, isn't it?

 

[akbearfoot]

The text you quoted supports what I said....RAW unless its the first REGULAR round of combat you cannot be flat footed, excepting of course all the new crap that gives other ways of making people flat footed. Surprise rounds are not regular rounds of combat, so even if you get to act on a surprise round if you then lose initiative in the first round you BECOME flat footed again....but my groups have all house ruled that out since its rediculous.

Which means if you set off a trap and you are not in combat then you are not flat-footed against the trap. I guess that does mean if you are standing on top of a pit trap that is set off by a switch and a bad guy shows up and beats you on initiative then you would be flat footed during that round.

 

[Thanee]

That means, you can never cast spells or use most of the skills outside combat.

I guess you can always deliberately "start a combat" to do so. But it seems a bit strange for sure.


The core of the question, however, certainly is combat-related... can you immediately react to something that suddenly happens or not?

Bye
Thanee

 

[Shin Okada]

The core of the question, however, certainly is combat-related... can you immediately react to something that suddenly happens or not?

It is up to each DM I guess. But if I were a DM I will allow it mainly because of following two reasons.

First of all, if I try to apply "flat-footed" or "can't react immediately" concept out of combat rounds, I will surely start to be suffered from heavy headache. For example, how can I determine if a PCs can apply dex bonus to AC against traps with attack rolls? Should I roll initiative for traps? Should there be surprise round for traps?

When there is no rule to clearly solve such kind of situations, my primal policy is "Don't think too much about it.".

The second reason is that spells like Feather Fall start to lose their effectiveness, thus their appeal, much if a DM rules that it cannot be used to react against such dangers. It costs a precious 1st-level spell slot indeed.

 

[blargney the second]

By default I let feather fall work outside of combat. (House rules ahead) Against particularly nasty or surprising traps, I have the player roll initiative against the trap, using its level as its Init bonus. If the player wins, immediate actions are fair game.