Immortal's Handbook CR/EL Rules: Don't Count Ability Scores (Proof Positive Inside!)

[Upper_Krust]

Hi Wulf mate!

Hope things have been going well for you lately?

As this example demonstrates, though, you have to. Why wouldn't you?

Take Spell Resistance. A 1st level character with high SR (or other costly component) is NOT getting the full value out of the added CR, and as Anubis pointed out, he'll get wiped.

Exactly. The Golden rule is necessary for PCs in the event some power(s) 'outweigh' their HD/Level factor by more than 100%.

I have some other problems with UKs system that are starting to rear their ugly head-- the 2/3 (1/2 for dragons) conversion rule just isn't making any sense anymore. I'll bring it up here when I have a couple spare minutes to make sure my concerns are coherent.

I appreciate the help mate (you too Anubis).

It does seem that the Zombies are collectively undersold, I'll be sure and look into it.

As for Dragons; either I am overselling their CR or the Official Rules are underselling them. I think perhaps the key point in this is the difference between Dragon ECL and CR (which remember are one and the same for my system).

Funnily enough the ECLs in Savage Species parallel my CRs fairly closely.

 

[Upper_Krust]

Undead

Hi all!

Initial research suggests that the most likely cause of the problem is how I have rated the ability/weakness of being Turned.

It could be more likely -1 (or less?) instead of -1.5. So I'll be looking into that.

 

[Matrix Sorcica]

Exactly. The Golden rule is necessary for PCs in the event some power(s) 'outweigh' their HD/Level factor by more than 100%.

Well, I don't have v.5, so maybe that's why, but a zillion posts back, UK, you yourself stated that the golden rule should not apply to PCs, only the silver rule and that you would make a note of it in v.5. Obiviously you didn't

The reason for this is that of ECL. The argument back then was that you might end up with a race with a load of powers, high stat modifiers, great natural armor etc. but few if any HD. The PC would then get these benefits at 'half price'. I think the example used was the drow.

What about templates? many of these could and would have their costs more or less halved?

 

[Wulf Ratbane]

Well, as long as you are around, let me try to explain my concerns with the conversion to and from core and UK's system (which I will call SRD and UK).

Let's say I want to make a creature to challenge my party of 20th level PCs.

In both the SRD and UK version, a 20th level PC is CR20. Characters "convert" 1 to 1. Party A is composed of 20th level PCs in the SRD system, Party B is composed of 20th level PCs in the UK system. If you took these two groups and matched them up, they'd be equal.

Now let's say I make a monster from the ground up. Adding up all factors in CR's system I make a critter and it totals up to CR30.

In the UK system, I match up Party B to this creature. The party is CR80, adjusted EL 22. The creature is CR30, EL20. Party B vs. Critter is a difference of EL -2. This is a difficult encounter.

Now I take this creature and convert it to the SRD system so I can match it up against Party A. To convert UK CR to SRD CR, you multiply by 2/3. This creature is now CR20.

Matched up against SRD Party A, this creature is CR20, EL20.

Since we have already ascertained that Party A = Party B, what is the explanation for the fact that the creature went from Difficult in UK to Moderate in SRD?

This problem is even more pronounced with Dragons, which somehow lose 50% of their CR when they make the conversion from UK to SRD.

I hope I have correctly stated the problem. Note that this has an impact only on the CR of creatures. The CR to EL conversion portion of UKs system remains intact. The only question is what CR you should be plugging into that table.

The solution is complicated and I don't think I have the full answer, but I would start by adding a final step to the process for adding up CR, and it is simply this:

Why not multiply the CR by 2/3 as a final step? Then you have 1-to-1 conversion of CR between systems as well.

Ideally, if all of UKs factors were valued correctly, creatures would add up to their SRD CR anyway.

Apologies if this has been brought up before, but as someone who is using UKs system to encourage use (and conversion) of d20 material, it's a big problem.

Upper_Krust, I am hoping for your comments, here. By all means please don't be your usual terse self! Give me some detailed explanation!

Wulf

 

[Matrix Sorcica]

HI all!

I don't mean to hijack this thread, but it just seems better to post this question here than dig up the old 21 page thread...

So here goes: In v.4, we can see that the fighter, paladin and rogue are a bit underpowered compared to the other core classes. The silver rule average is around 115%, yet the mentioned classes score only ~110%.

Now, the question is, would it be a bad idea to give these classes some benefit that equals +5%?
I know this will raise the average to ~118% but I'm not concerned 'bout that.

Benefits: Now only the spellcasters are more powerful. No 'non-major spellcaster' overshadows other non-major spellcasters.
And it makes it possible to add interesting features at otherwise 'dull' lvls.

Concerns: Don't mess with the core rules. Even though they rate lower, the fighter, rogue and paladin might be just fine.
In theory, altering the core classes might mess up some assumptions in the CR system.

Comments very welcome.

 

[Upper_Krust]

Hi Sorcica mate!

Well, I don't have v.5, so maybe that's why, but a zillion posts back, UK, you yourself stated that the golden rule should not apply to PCs, only the silver rule and that you would make a note of it in v.5. Obiviously you didn't

The Golden Rule never applies to ECL but it certainly applies to CR.

The reason for this is that of ECL. The argument back then was that you might end up with a race with a load of powers, high stat modifiers, great natural armor etc. but few if any HD. The PC would then get these benefits at 'half price'. I think the example used was the drow.

What about templates? many of these could and would have their costs more or less halved?

Same as above.

 

[Upper_Krust]

Hi Wulf mate!

Well, as long as you are around, let me try to explain my concerns with the conversion to and from core and UK's system (which I will call SRD and UK).

Let's say I want to make a creature to challenge my party of 20th level PCs.

In both the SRD and UK version, a 20th level PC is CR20. Characters "convert" 1 to 1. Party A is composed of 20th level PCs in the SRD system, Party B is composed of 20th level PCs in the UK system. If you took these two groups and matched them up, they'd be equal.

Now let's say I make a monster from the ground up. Adding up all factors in CR's system I make a critter and it totals up to CR30.

In the UK system, I match up Party B to this creature. The party is CR80, adjusted EL 22. The creature is CR30, EL20. Party B vs. Critter is a difference of EL -2. This is a difficult encounter.

Now I take this creature and convert it to the SRD system so I can match it up against Party A. To convert UK CR to SRD CR, you multiply by 2/3. This creature is now CR20.

Matched up against SRD Party A, this creature is CR20, EL20.

Since we have already ascertained that Party A = Party B, what is the explanation for the fact that the creature went from Difficult in UK to Moderate in SRD?

This problem is even more pronounced with Dragons, which somehow lose 50% of their CR when they make the conversion from UK to SRD.

I hope I have correctly stated the problem. Note that this has an impact only on the CR of creatures. The CR to EL conversion portion of UKs system remains intact. The only question is what CR you should be plugging into that table.

The solution is complicated and I don't think I have the full answer, but I would start by adding a final step to the process for adding up CR, and it is simply this:

Why not multiply the CR by 2/3 as a final step? Then you have 1-to-1 conversion of CR between systems as well.

Ideally, if all of UKs factors were valued correctly, creatures would add up to their SRD CR anyway.

Apologies if this has been brought up before, but as someone who is using UKs system to encourage use (and conversion) of d20 material, it's a big problem.

The 2/3 (1/2 for Dragons) conversion method was only ever meant to be a 'quick fix' for those too lazy to properly convert monsters over to my system. As such its not going to be entirely accurate naturally.

Upper_Krust, I am hoping for your comments, here. By all means please don't be your usual terse self! Give me some detailed explanation!

I thought my terse manner was part of my charm.

I put it all down to my high terse-tosterone levels*.

*with apologies for the bad pun

 

[Wulf Ratbane]

The 2/3 (1/2 for Dragons) conversion method was only ever meant to be a 'quick fix' for those too lazy to properly convert monsters over to my system. As such its not going to be entirely accurate naturally.

This doesn't answer (or even acknowledge) the problem.

One system (SRD or UK) has to be right; has to be accurate in assessing the difficulty of an encounter.

A CR20-SRD creature is a moderate challenge for 20th level SRD PCs. Because we know that SRD PCs are equivalent in power to UK PCs, then it stands to reason that the creature will be the exact same challenge to the party.

Now, you take that exact same creature and, not being lazy, rebuild it from the ground up, using the challenge rating factors in UK's system. Suddenly that creature-- though it has gained no new abilities in the process, and the PCs' abilities have not changed in the slightest-- that creature is suddenly a difficult encounter (CR30-UK).

If you maintain that PCs are equivalent in both systems, then essentially you are saying that every single monster CR in the core system is wrong. If you go through the trouble to rebuild those monsters (as God knows, we all know you have done) you should not discover that every monster is actually more difficult in your system than the SRD CR's attest.

But this is exactly what happens, and that can't be right.


Wulf

 

[Matrix Sorcica]

This doesn't answer (or even acknowledge) the problem.


Wulf

Even more stupid; multiplying the UK CR by 2/3 to get SRD CR would make a 20th lvl character CR 14. Unless you of course knew that character calasses werent affected. Or am I missing something.

UK, please explain the golden rule CR/ECL conditions for me. Your reply didn't help me out If the golden rule applies to CR but not ECL, it means you can't use the straight CR =ECL formula. Or what?

Oh, and please everybody. I would be most grateful is you would commnt my idea of boostin the fighter, paladin and rogue. Thanks.

 

[Wulf Ratbane]

Even more stupid; multiplying the UK CR by 2/3 to get SRD CR would make a 20th lvl character CR 14. Unless you of course knew that character calasses werent affected. Or am I missing something.

Sorry, thought I was clear in my setup.

1 Character Level = 1 CR.

That doesn't change.

(The fact that that doesn't change from system to system is, in fact, the problem.)


Wulf