Immortal's Handbook CR/EL Rules: Don't Count Ability Scores (Proof Positive Inside!)

[Matrix Sorcica]

Edit: My post didn't make any sense, so deleted

 

[Upper_Krust]

Hi Wulf mate!

This doesn't answer (or even acknowledge) the problem.

One system (SRD or UK) has to be right; has to be accurate in assessing the difficulty of an encounter.

That would be mine.

A CR20-SRD creature is a moderate challenge for 20th level SRD PCs.

I disagree with that statement. Firstly the majority of SRD CRs are doctored so that they provide a tougher challenge than the listed figure.

Try running four Pit Fiends against a four strong 20th-level Party and then tell me thats a moderate encounter.

Because we know that SRD PCs are equivalent in power to UK PCs, then it stands to reason that the creature will be the exact same challenge to the party.

Yes, however the assumption is flawed. In the SRD CR rules Monsters and PCs/NPCs are treated differently. Monsters use their CR for CR and PCs/NPCs use their ECL for CR.

Now, you take that exact same creature and, not being lazy, rebuild it from the ground up, using the challenge rating factors in UK's system. Suddenly that creature-- though it has gained no new abilities in the process, and the PCs' abilities have not changed in the slightest-- that creature is suddenly a difficult encounter (CR30-UK).

It always was a difficult encounter, the SRD rules are doctored to lower the CR to give a relatively tougher encounter.

(I would have mentioned this earlier but I have been out of the CR/EL loop for a month or two and I was a bit rusty)

If you maintain that PCs are equivalent in both systems, then essentially you are saying that every single monster CR in the core system is wrong.

I wouldn't say they are wrong, but I would not say they are accurate models of what constitutes a moderate encounter. The given CRs are doctored as I have mentioned above.

If you go through the trouble to rebuild those monsters (as God knows, we all know you have done) you should not discover that every monster is actually more difficult in your system than the SRD CR's attest.

But this is exactly what happens, and that can't be right.

My system parallels Monsters and Characters using the same method. The SRD rules have seperate rules for Monsters and Characters. If the rules were the same then obviously you could use monster CR as ECL (as you can do with character CR).


In the words of George Costanza "I'M BACK BABY!!"

 

[Upper_Krust]

Hi Sorcica mate!

Even more stupid; multiplying the UK CR by 2/3 to get SRD CR would make a 20th lvl character CR 14. Unless you of course knew that character classes werent affected. Or am I missing something.

The core Class Levels are the defining denominator between both systems.

1 Level = 1 CR = 1 ECL

Of course under the SRD rules 1 CR does not equal 1 ECL for monsters but it does for PCs. Thats why you have all sorts of problems with the SRD rules.

UK, please explain the golden rule CR/ECL conditions for me. Your reply didn't help me out If the golden rule applies to CR but not ECL, it means you can't use the straight CR = ECL formula. Or what?

If you use the Golden Rule in a character ECL then the problem becomes that you have to update not only the character each time you 'level up' but also the template!

Its like some of the Monster Templates in WotCs products which have different ratings depending on how many Hit Dice you have.

When the character 'levels up' you are faced with the prospect that the ECL of the template may also change. So its better (simpler) to just add the full template value for ECL and then you don't have to worry about it.

Thats also why I advocate that the CR total for abilities should never be greater than the CR total for HD (that way we would never even need the Golden Rule).

Oh, and please everybody. I would be most grateful is you would comment my idea of boostin the fighter, paladin and rogue. Thanks.

Well I always thought...

Fighter: d12 HD
Rogue: d8 HD
Cleric: d6 HD
Druid: d6 HD

...would go some way to alleviating the problems, but I can't see this as anything more than a house rule really. Maybe in 4th Edition eh!?

 

[Matrix Sorcica]

If you use the Golden Rule in a character ECL then the problem becomes that you have to update not only the character each time you 'level up' but also the template!

Its like some of the Monster Templates in WotCs products which have different ratings depending on how many Hit Dice you have.

When the character 'levels up' you are faced with the prospect that the ECL of the template may also change. So its better (simpler) to just add the full template value for ECL and then you don't have to worry about it.

Thats also why I advocate that the CR total for abilities should never be greater than the CR total for HD (that way we would never even need the Golden Rule).

So all in all, you actually agreeing with me? That for PCs you don't apply the golden rule because it's a complicated mess. But for any monster (that you of course know all past, present and future abilities of) you do apply the rule.

Right?

...would go some way to alleviating the problems, but I can't see this as anything more than a house rule really. Maybe in 4th Edition eh!?

 

[Wulf Ratbane]

Try running four Pit Fiends against a four strong 20th-level Party and then tell me thats a moderate encounter.

I wouldn't tell you that at all. A pit fiend is CR20. That means a SINGLE Pit Fiend is a moderate encounter for a party of FOUR Characters.

Four pit fiends are EL24. (CR20, x2 = +2, x2 = +2)

The SRD CR of a creature is designed to indicated its difficulty against a standard party of four.

So I'll tell you that ONE CR20 Pit Fiend is a moderate encounter. How's that?

I wouldn't say they are wrong, but I would not say they are accurate models of what constitutes a moderate encounter. The given CRs are doctored as I have mentioned above.

Sorry, I think it's a stretch to claim that the difficulty of every creature is the core rules is off by a consistent factor of 2/3. For all the good that your EL system shows, this claim is absurd.

In the words of George Costanza "I'M BACK BABY!!"

Not after making a mistake like that with the Pit Fiends, I wouldn't say so...

(Ahh, we all have a math brain fart every now and then...)

Wulf

 

[Wulf Ratbane]

So all in all, you actually agreeing with me? That for PCs you don't apply the golden rule because it's a complicated mess. But for any monster (that you of course know all past, present and future abilities of) you do apply the rule.

I think what he is saying is that you can't topload PCs with a whole lot of CR factors, not apply the Golden Rule, demolish them with trog zombies, and then come screaming that the sky is falling.

Basically, don't add more CR to a Character than he has Character Levels, unless you want to go through the trouble of applying the Golden Rule.


Wulf

 

[Upper_Krust]

Hi Sorcica mate!

So all in all, you actually agreeing with me? That for PCs you don't apply the golden rule because it's a complicated mess. But for any monster (that you of course know all past, present and future abilities of) you do apply the rule.

Right?

You apply the Golden Rule for PC CR but not for PC ECL.

 

[Upper_Krust]

Hey Wulf mate!

I think what he is saying is that you can't topload PCs with a whole lot of CR factors, not apply the Golden Rule, demolish them with trog zombies, and then come screaming that the sky is falling.

Basically, don't add more CR to a Character than he has Character Levels, unless you want to go through the trouble of applying the Golden Rule.

Exactly.

 

[Upper_Krust]

Hey Wulf matey!

I wouldn't tell you that at all. A pit fiend is CR20. That means a SINGLE Pit Fiend is a moderate encounter for a party of FOUR Characters.

Says WotC.

Four pit fiends are EL24. (CR20, x2 = +2, x2 = +2)

The SRD CR of a creature is designed to indicated its difficulty against a standard party of four.

So I'll tell you that ONE CR20 Pit Fiend is a moderate encounter. How's that?

If one 3.5 Pit Fiend is a moderate encounter for a 20th-level Party then supposedly four 3.5 Pit Fiends is a 50/50 encounter. As far as I can see the party (unless min/maxed resulting in a situational modifier anyway) are clearly outmatched in that fight.

The majority of monsters statted by WotC are doctored slightly to make them tougher than they should be.

Sorry, I think it's a stretch to claim that the difficulty of every creature is the core rules is off by a consistent factor of 2/3. For all the good that your EL system shows, this claim is absurd.

Roughly speaking thats the typical difference between monster ECL (ie. My systems CR) and SRD CR.

Not after making a mistake like that with the Pit Fiends, I wouldn't say so...

(Ahh, we all have a math brain fart every now and then...)

I meant to say 'even' encounter in my previous post rather than 'moderate' one (when refering to the four Pit Fiends).

 

[Wulf Ratbane]

If one 3.5 Pit Fiend is a moderate encounter for a 20th-level Party then supposedly four 3.5 Pit Fiends is a 50/50 encounter. As far as I can see the party (unless min/maxed resulting in a situational modifier anyway) are clearly outmatched in that fight.

Hmmm... Don't have my DMG with me at the moment, but I seem to recall that +4 EL is pretty clearly labeled "nearly impossible."

Anything over +4 EL is "impossible."

I wouldn't bet my life on it, but I am pretty sure...

[Post Lunch EDIT]

EL +1 to +4 inclusive are "DIFFICULT."

EL +5 is "OVERPOWERING"

So while not technically "nearly impossible," EL +4 is on the upper end of Difficult and damn near "Overpowering."

I don't believe that EL +4 = 50/50, at any rate. The odds are not that good.

The fact that the 2/3 multiplier discrepancy exists means that for EVERY given CR, every Encounter Level will be off by +2. EVERY monster in the core rules goes from Moderate (25% resources, 87.5% victory) to Difficult (50% resources, 75% victory).

I simply don't think you can argue that EVERY monster in the core rules is off by an entire "category" of difficulty.

Actually, I take that back. Not every monster undergoes that change. Dragons get it even worse!

Wulf