Immortals Handbook - Grimoire (Artifacts, Epic Magic discussion)

[Farealmer3]

The fact that it hasn't been constructively replicated by humanity is overwhelming evidence.

But how often has humanity got his tech or been instructed in it's use?

The problem with this is it assumes one tech level (G) is stagnant while another tech level has unlimited potential (Reed).

Realitically it shouln't work like that but in fiction the super advanced society/being is always stagnant compared to the underdeveloped ones. The thing is i don't recall Galactus ever trying to improve or build more advanced tech. But i only have second hand info so i could be wrong. He just seems more worried about eating than building tech.

That Galactus' abilities and tech are beyond the ken of mortals has not only been stated repeatedly by numerous characters but is a logical presumption that you haven't rebutted.

The problem is as i said can't today can tomarrow. Simply because Galactus has the most advanced tech in the universe(save perhaps the celestials) doesn't mean it's beyond everyone to ever learn. Maybe beyond them today, but tomarrow who knows?

However, without them, he isn't. You don't have to appreciate all of the nuances of an object to effectively wield it. Thanos' understanding and ability to wield both these artifacts improved the longer he was in control of them which clearly indicates a fuller understanding that developed with time.

The fact that in the end he became the Supreme being should allow him even afterward to understand higher things than he previously has, and i don't see Galactus tech as his ceiling.

By the way, you aare aware that Galactus has wielded the Infinity Gems in concert aren't you? In fact, he did so after the LT ruled that they couldn't be used in conjuntion.

If the writers want to make Galactus stronger than the LT it's thier business(these are the people who made Spiderman stronger than a herald of Galactus). But even the LT was below HotU Thanos.

Again, you don't have to completely understand something to use it. Consider a bank robber with a gun.

Somehow i can't imagine weilding infinite power and knowledge the same as using a gun.

 

[historian]

I would like to point out a mistake that people make about Doom all the time. He would, in fact be able to tell that a +6 sword is magical, because he is a sorcerer himself. He just chooses to rely on technology over magic as a point of pride.

Excellent point.

As a matter of fact both Doom and Reed Richards as of the current continuity are both beyond human, although neither started that way.

 

[paradox42]

that said, that's a highly speculative contention wouldn't you say?

No more so than the idea of beings from stars multiple light-years away coming to this primitive backwater of the galaxy just to visit. Whether or not you find the idea of alien visitation valid was not my point; my point was that if one does accept that idea- at least beyond saying "no, that's impossible" as so many knee-jerk skeptics do- then you should stop to wonder why these strange visitors do look so suspiciously like humans. The fact of the matter is, space and time are one; we've known that as fact for over half a century and proven it numerous times by ever-more precise experiments. This means that a society capable of visiting places multiple light-years away should also be capable of expanding their reach across an equivalent distance of time, for whatever that's worth. The idea of time-travelers from a far-flung future who barely look human to us is not particularly harder to accept than the notion of crossing that sort of distance in the first place, is it?

As an incidental, the quantum mechanical approach to physics is increasingly suggesting that both time and space are actually illusory in the ultimate sense, but that's neither here nor there and I won't delve further into it here except to bring up this reminder quote: "The universe is not only stranger than we imagine, it is stranger than we can imagine."

Which indirectly supports the argument of the limits of humanity in its currently evolutionary stage.

How so? All I did was point out that the "grays" looking humanoid is an indicator to their being related to humans somehow, possibly by being distant descendants of modern humanity. Modern humans understand that time is a variable, just as space is; even if we don't know how to actually manipulate the variable and travel across time into the local past, we do have the concept that it is or may be possible to do so. If a "gray" were to explain how this is accomplished, presuming they are indeed distant descendants of ours, how would this be beyond our cognition?

 

[historian]

Realitically it shouln't work like that but in fiction the super advanced society/being is always stagnant compared to the underdeveloped ones. The thing is i don't recall Galactus ever trying to improve or build more advanced tech. But i only have second hand info so i could be wrong. He just seems more worried about eating than building tech.

I think the tech is the means and the eating is the end.

The problem is as i said can't today can tomarrow. Simply because Galactus has the most advanced tech in the universe(save perhaps the celestials) doesn't mean it's beyond everyone to ever learn. Maybe beyond them today, but tomarrow who knows?

In fairness to your point Michael Korvac did steal some of G's power through technology. Although he had been augmented to superhuman levels but the augmentations were essentially of mortal design as best I can remember.

Korvac also deomstrated the ability, at least apparently, to use the Ultimate Nullifier from G's arsenal to destroy the Universe. G has never demonstrated the ability to use the UN to that potential that I am aware of. However, that was well after Korvac had absorbed the essences of several beings, the sum total of which likely far exceeded G.

So, in theory it might be possible for a natural genius to catch up to G's existing technology though it should take vast amounts of resources (time, etc.) to do so.

However, things remaining equal (time, etc.) I think you would agree with me that G's technology will always be vastly, if not infinitely, ahead of mortal technology?

I think that's the justification for the tech levels in the first place.

The fact that in the end he became the Supreme being should allow him even afterward to understand higher things than he previously has, and i don't see Galactus tech as his ceiling.

I think his experience as the Supreme Being probably imparted a deep wisdom akin to a stage of spiritual enlightment that wasn't there before.

I can't tell that this has had an effect on his tech however, maybe time will tell.

By the way, I am much more amenable to the notion of Thanos catching up to G's tech than Richards or Doom. Thanos is, after all, an augmented "Eternal" (Marvel terms, not IH).

He's probably two tiers behind currently, whereas Richards or Doom are more like 4 or 5 tiers behind.

If the writers want to make Galactus stronger than the LT it's thier business(these are the people who made Spiderman stronger than a herald of Galactus).

I certainly don't think that is what Starlin (who wrote that bit) intended. For all I can tell the LT didn't intervene because G's use of the Gems served a higher purpose.

But even the LT was below HotU Thanos.

Agreed, unless a retcon is forthcoming.

Somehow i can't imagine weilding infinite power and knowledge the same as using a gun.

The only point I was trying to make here was that just because you can use something (i.e. Reed threatening H with the UN) doesn't mean you understand all of its nuances or can even use it it its full potential.

Reed surely couldn't use the UN like G or Korvac could. Thanos grew progressively more powerful the longer he wielded the IG an HOTU as he better understood how to use them. That alone proves that he had much to learn even though he sensed their potential when others didn't.

 

[historian]

Whether or not you find the idea of alien visitation valid was not my point; my point was that if one does accept that idea- at least beyond saying "no, that's impossible" as so many knee-jerk skeptics do- then you should stop to wonder why these strange visitors do look so suspiciously like humans.

Accepting the idea isn't concommitant to accepting the testimony of every eyewitness claiming to see a visitor irrespective of similarities in their accounts and I quite honestly have no idea whether aliens do or don't exist or whether they have visited this planet.

That said, I recognize that there are several arguments based on circumstantial evidence suggesting the high likelihood of intelligent life throughout the Cosmos.

The fact of the matter is, space and time are one; we've known that as fact for over half a century and proven it numerous times by ever-more precise experiments. This means that a society capable of visiting places multiple light-years away should also be capable of expanding their reach across an equivalent distance of time, for whatever that's worth.

My point previously was that our society (in real life) hasn't been able to visit places multiple light-years away. Mortal societies in the MU have been able to do this (barely).

As an incidental, the quantum mechanical approach to physics is increasingly suggesting that both time and space are actually illusory in the ultimate sense

They are merely a priori intuitions according to some.

I won't delve further into it here except to bring up this reminder quote: "The universe is not only stranger than we imagine, it is stranger than we can imagine."

I can only surmise then that you would agree with my general contention that there are things then that are beyond the grasp of the human (in present evolutionary state) mind?

Do you believe Galactus' technology would be one of these things?

How so? All I did was point out that the "grays" looking humanoid is an indicator to their being related to humans somehow, possibly by being distant descendants of modern humanity. Modern humans understand that time is a variable, just as space is; even if we don't know how to actually manipulate the variable and travel across time into the local past, we do have the concept that it is or may be possible to do so. If a "gray" were to explain how this is accomplished, presuming they are indeed distant descendants of ours, how would this be beyond our cognition?

First, I think we've established that your example of interstellar (and thus intertemporal apparently) has been obtained by at least fictional humans. U_K has already ascribed a tech level for this, and it is well below that which he ascribes to Galactus.

Second, the other thing I've been arguing is that some tech is beyond the reach of the mortal ken. Farealmer3 disagrees with me and I can cite at least one example (Korvac) where it appears an augmented mortal in the very, very distant future might have reached equal footing with Galactus.

Third, just because an evolutionary advanced "metahuman" if you will can bring a mortal up to speed on a certain technology doesn't mean that the mortal is on equal footing with the metahuman. Even if the metahuman were capable of a total tech transfer to the mortal it follows that the metahuman would eventually outpave the mortal in future technologies because the metahuman is more advanced to begin with.

Fourth, your interstellar traveller is purported to be further along the evolutionary curve. This supports the notion of tech levels either being unobtainable entirely or not feasibly attainable within the mortal evolutionary cycle which wholly supports my contention that there are technologies beyond the mortal ken.

Am I missing something?

 

[Farealmer3]

I think the tech is the means and the eating is the end.

Yes but he could do this under his own power. Him relying on his tech is really PIS considering his Galactic level power.

I think you would agree with me that G's technology will always be vastly, if not infinitely, ahead of mortal technology?

No, he's infact had billions of years post big bang to advance himself and i see nothing to show that he's made leaps past what he started with. In short even if given equal time and resources, Galactus simply doesn't seem interested in build greater tech. Drive to created is just as important as ability after all.


Even if you accept that he's beyond Marvel human ability. His tech is not that superior compared to some fictional humans and other "mortal" species. Things like the Xeelee and the Culture come to mind. On an individual level the Infinite improbablity drive comes to mind, it's beyond Galactus's tech and it was build by mortals.

The only point I was trying to make here was that just because you can use something (i.e. Reed threatening H with the UN) doesn't mean you understand all of its nuances or can even use it it its full potential.

But again the UN is a glorified gun, it doesn't impart knowledge ad abilities to you.

 

[historian]

Yes but he could do this under his own power. Him relying on his tech is really PIS considering his Galactic level power.

If he relied only on his own power he would be a large sun. The armor he crafted via technology allows him to be.

His technology allows him to consume more efficiently. Otherwise it would be a planet per day, not per month. The raw energy required to feed would in may instances offset the benefit from feeding.

No, he's infact had billions of years post big bang to advance himself and i see nothing to show that he's made leaps past what he started with.

We weren't really introduced to him until the late 60s though. Who's to say what he really started with outside of the Egg.

In short even if given equal time and resources, Galactus simply doesn't seem interested in build greater tech.

See above. Remember, Galactus has not had the benefit of colleagues extensively testing his research either.

Galactus simply doesn't seem interested in build greater tech.

OK, so we differ on G's incentive to build tech.

At least you admit his capacity for tech far exceeds humanity and in particular any human specifically?

Even if you accept that he's beyond Marvel human ability.

If by "he" you mean Galactus then yes.

His tech is not that superior compared to some fictional humans and other "mortal" species. Things like the Xeelee and the Culture come to mind. On an individual level the Infinite improbablity drive comes to mind, it's beyond Galactus's tech and it was build by mortals.

I'm not familiar with your example.

Is your problem with using G as an example? I mean, if I changed it to the Celestials or the Shaper of Worlds would your opinion change?

If you're arguing that someone at sometime has written up mortal technology that exceeds G's then you're probably right. What that proves is beyond me because it is so far outside the Marvel continuum.

The Skrulls are far more advanced that humans in the MU. Much of their technology has been innovated to thwart being consumed by Galactus who, at his option, can warp around to targets that are easier to consume.

More to the point, what do you make of the Agardians (an inherently divine species) creation of the Destroyer to challenge the Celestials? How did that pan out?

But again the UN is a glorified gun, it doesn't impart knowledge ad abilities to you.

If you require the benefits of x technology before you can create x technology then you will never create x technology unless bestowed upon you by some higher power that created x technology.

 

[Farealmer3]

At least you admit his capacity for tech far exceeds humanity and in particular any human specifically?

No, becuase i've never seen him build tech that exceeds what i consider humanities limit.

I'm not familiar with your example.

Culture
Xeelee
IID

Is your problem with using G as an example? I mean, if I changed it to the Celestials or the Shaper of Worlds would your opinion change?

Depends on what they've done.

What that proves is beyond me because it is so far outside the Marvel continuum.

That mortals can develop powerful tech. The only reason Reed and Doom don't is more because they are balanced for Earth rather than an accual limit. Comic book people alway develop plot devices rather than tech. If they were placed in a setting were PIS didn't require them to limit their ability. Than it would be different. But mainly it proves than the fact that even if Galactus was written beyond marvel mortals, their are other fictions that he isn't beyond.

More to the point, what do you make of the Agardians (an inherently divine species) creation of the Destroyer to challenge the Celestials? How did that pan out?

It seemed more like a "put our power together and hope we win" device than a tech one.

unless bestowed upon you by some higher power that created x technology.

Or are taught by higher power.

 

[historian]

No, becuase i've never seen him build tech that exceeds what i consider humanities limit.

And what is the limit of humanity's tech?

And please don't tell me there is no limit to humanity's tech because no one has proven there is a limit to humanity's tech.

Culture
Xeelee
IID

From your sources:

"the Xeelee represent the unattainable pinnacle of technological development."

"Unattainable" being the operative word.

The Infinite Improbability Drive is a fictional faster-than-light drive in Douglas Adams' The Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy series of books.

I dare say G can travel faster than light.

Depends on what they've done.

Compared to whom?

The only reason Reed and Doom don't is more because they are balanced for Earth rather than an accual limit.

Please.

Doom has taken every opportunity he has had to harness a Herald's power (both Surfer and Terrax).

But mainly it proves than the fact that even if Galactus was written beyond marvel mortals, their are other fictions that he isn't beyond.

Those fictions you are referring to haven written up Galactus either have they?

It seemed more like a "put our power together and hope we win" device than a tech one.

Not really. Odin absorbed the life force of virtually all of Asgard to battle the Celestials but he did so through the Destroyer.

Or are taught by higher power.

Precisely.

 

[Farealmer3]

From your sources:

Well i've seen you've sniped out the parts that benifit your arguement. Not so much my point though.

Compared to whom?

To Galactus.

Please.

Doom has taken every opportunity he has had to harness a Herald's power (both Surfer and Terrax)
.

Prehaps, but that wasn't what i was talking about.

Those fictions you are referring to haven written up Galactus either have they?

Irrelevent, Galactus's presence or absence has no bearing on they're accomlishments. It's about comparing they're feats of intellegence, not about whether or not Galactus is there.

Odin absorbed the life force of virtually all of Asgard to battle the Celestials but he did so through the Destroyer.

Which is what i am saying.

Precisely

Glad to see you agree Galactus can teah Reed about his tech and Reed could learn it.