Immortals Handbook - Grimoire (Artifacts, Epic Magic discussion)

[historian]

Well i've seen you've sniped out the parts that benifit your arguement.

Which ones benefit yours?

Irrelevent, Galactus's presence or absence has no bearing on they're accomlishments.

It directly relevant when you're comparing G's accomplishments to theirs. They haven't written G's tech yet.

C'mon, apples to oranges.

Prehaps, but that wasn't what i was talking about.

What exactly is the point then?

Which is what i am saying.

Nevertheless, the Destroyer is a product of technology is it not?

Glad to see you agree Galactus can teah Reed about his tech and Reed could learn it.

Are you getting it?

Even if Reed can learn to use the UN it doesn't mean he's on the level of G/Korvac.

Do you or don't you agree with the foregoing statement?

 

[Farealmer3]

Which ones benefit yours?

That humans in the Xeeleeverse have accually reverse engineered Xeelee tech. That the IID teleports via omnipresence. You know basically everything except the brush off statements you gave.

C'mon, apples to oranges.

Meaningless, people say that to avoid losing a debate. Everything is comparible, only those who don't want their horse to lose avoid it. As someone who debates in fiction vs fiction daily, i know they can be compared, and very easily at that. Infact comparing the Asgards to the celestials is more apples/oranges than my examples to Galactus.

What exactly is the point then?

That Doom and Reed could learn Galactus tech given time.

Nevertheless, the Destroyer is a product of technology is it not?

I don't know, is it? And what is the point of it anyway, it's not like the Asgards are known for thier tech.

Do you or don't you agree with the foregoing statement?

Depends, what your saying, if your saying that Reed doesn't have Galactus's knowledge then yes. If your saying he could never acquire it then no.

 

[historian]

That humans in the Xeeleeverse have accually reverse engineered Xeelee tech. That the IID teleports via omnipresence. You know basically everything except the brush off statements you gave.

How did I brush anything off?

Here's the quote:

"the Xeelee represent the unattainable pinnacle of technological development."

Meaningless, people say that to avoid losing a debate. Everything is comparible, only those who don't want their horse to lose avoid it. As someone who debates in fiction vs fiction daily, i know they can be compared, and very easily at that. Infact comparing the Asgards to the celestials is more apples/oranges than my examples to Galactus.

You're right, comparing Reed to Galactus is apples to oranges. That's why Galactus is ascribed to a higher tech level.

That Doom and Reed could learn Galactus tech given time.

But they haven't; not even close.

Why not? Because Galactus hasn't educated them?

Even if they were to advance by virtue of Galactus' tutoring likewise would Galactus be able to advance.

They just aren't on the same level as Galactus.

if your saying that Reed doesn't have Galactus's knowledge then yes. If your saying he could never acquire it then no.

But even if Reed could understand, absorb, and apply the sum total of G's current knowledge he wouldn't be on the same technology level, at least not for long, as Galactus' potential to learn knew technologies is at least equal to Reed's.

 

[Farealmer3]

How did I brush anything off?

First you quote that one part, disregarding that fact that humans have reverse engineered Xeelee tech. Not all of it or even close to all, but they have advanced themselves through understanding of the original. And saying the IID is just an FTL drive, when infact it may be thee most advanced one in fiction. Far above Galactus, unless he's visited every level of existance before. Which the IID can do.

You're right, comparing Reed to Galactus is apples to oranges.

Not really, they are different, but not uncomparible.

Even if they were to advance by virtue of Galactus' tutoring likewise would Galactus be able to advance.

Debatable, considering we've not seen him try.

But even if Reed could understand, absorb, and apply the sum total of G's current knowledge he wouldn't be on the same technology level, at least not for long, as Galactus' potential to learn knew technologies is at least equal to Reed's.

Only if you assume that they have different peaks and that Reed could never accelerate beyond Galactus using shortcuts.

 

[Farealmer3]

U_K having looked at your progress level chart and Galactus's entry i notice you put the ancients from Stargate on a higher tier that Galactus(even on a higher tier than the Ultimate nullifier). I am wondering why?

 

[EarthSeraphEdna]

Speaking of the Progress Level chart on the website, I noticed that Earth is only listed as 0.5 on the Kardashev Scale when it should really be 0.7 on the scale. In addition, some of the sci-fi civilizations have their Kardashev Scale ratings severely underestimated (the Earth Alliance should be Type I, the Federation and the Empire should be Type II). So with this in mind, the table should be rearranged in either one of two ways:

Disciple = Kardashev 0.3
Prophet = Kardashev 0.4
Hero-deity = Kardashev 0.5 = Earth (Industrial Revolution)
Quasi-deity = Kardashev 0.6 = Earth (Modernity)
Demi-deity = Kardashev 0.7 = Earth (1989-Present)
Lesser Deity = Kardashev 0.8
Intermediate Deity = Kardashev 0.9
Greater Deity = Kardashev Type I = Earth Alliance (Babylon 5), Gaia (Isaac Asimov's Foundation series)
Elder One = Kardashev Type II = Federation (Star Trek), Republic/Empire (Star Wars), Ringworld (Larry Niven)
Old One = Kardashev Type III = Culture series (Iain M. Banks), Manifold: Time (Stephen Baxter)
First One = Kardashev Type IV = Time Lords and Dalek (Dr. Who), Xeelee Sequence (Stephen Baxter)
Time Lord = Kardashev Type V = Q Continuum (Star Trek)
High Lord = Kardashev Type VI
Supreme Being = Kardashev Type VII
Akashic Records = Kardashev Type VIII

Disciple = Kardashev 0.5 = Earth (Industrial Revolution)
Prophet = Kardashev 0.6 = Earth (Modernity)
Hero-deity = Kardashev 0.7 = Earth (1989-Present)
Demi-deity = Kardashev 0.8
Quasi-deity = Kardashev 0.9
Lesser Deity = Kardashev Type I = Earth Alliance (Babylon 5), Gaia (Isaac Asimov's Foundation series)
Intermediate Deity = Kardashev Type II = Federation (Star Trek), Republic/Empire (Star Wars), Ringworld (Larry Niven)
Greater Deity = Kardashev Type III = Culture series (Iain M. Banks), Manifold: Time (Stephen Baxter)
Elder One = Kardashev Type IV = Time Lords and Dalek (Dr. Who), Xeelee Sequence (Stephen Baxter)
Old One = Kardashev Type V = Q Continuum (Star Trek)
First One = Kardashev Type VI
Time Lord = Kardashev Type VII
High Lord = Kardashev Type VIII
Supreme Being = Kardashev Type Type IX
Akashic Records = Kardashev Type Type X

So which one would you recommend using as a guideline for Divine Rank - Kardashev Scale conversion?

 

[paradox42]

My point previously was that our society (in real life) hasn't been able to visit places multiple light-years away. Mortal societies in the MU have been able to do this (barely).

Aha, I see the crux of the issue here. You're basing your arguments solely on what you read in the Marvel comics universe, when others who have been stepping in to argue with you or point things out (like me) have not been. I, in fact, have very little familiarity with the Marvel Universe. But the philosophical point you've been trying to make- which is that it is possible to create a technology that is so advanced that it is quite simply beyond the capacity of a more primitive mind to understand it no matter how much information said mind gets access to- is a general contention with implications that go far beyond the Marvel universe. Thus, those who have been arguing with you have been drawing from as many sources as occur to us, while you have been relating everything said to the MU. This would naturally lead to miscommunications.

I can only surmise then that you would agree with my general contention that there are things then that are beyond the grasp of the human (in present evolutionary state) mind?

No, I don't, because I'm a believer in the opposite contention- that with enough access to information, anything is possible. The point is, our society hasn't gained access to enough information to figure these things out. I believe that with more information, we could figure them out- perhaps it would take us longer to do so than hypothetical alien beings with brains that process abstract information better than ours, but the processing itself (which is the critical step to figure out a technology) could still take place.

Do you believe Galactus' technology would be one of these things?

Given that we know a human author made up Galactus, and his technology, I would have to say no- Galactus's technology is not one of those things.

Third, just because an evolutionary advanced "metahuman" if you will can bring a mortal up to speed on a certain technology doesn't mean that the mortal is on equal footing with the metahuman.

Equal footing, certainly not. But wasn't the point of this arguing to prove that some technologies are supposed to be beyond mortals' ability to understand or create? If the metahuman can bring the mortal "up to speed" on one technology, then why not others as well, given sufficient time?

Even if the metahuman were capable of a total tech transfer to the mortal it follows that the metahuman would eventually outpave the mortal in future technologies because the metahuman is more advanced to begin with.

I would specify that the metahuman is capable of better information processing, but if we take both groups over an identical period of time then you are certainly correct. Since the metahuman "thinks faster," naturally it will discover new things faster than the mortals as long as they don't discover how to augment themselves to its level (so to speak).

Fourth, your interstellar traveller is purported to be further along the evolutionary curve.

There is no "evolutionary curve" actually. Evolution is a neutral process, not a ladder. There is no such thing as "higher evolved" or "lower evolved-" there is just "evolved." Advancement is entirely a matter of perspective and circumstance. Creatures do not "advance" or "devolve," they simply become different.

This supports the notion of tech levels either being unobtainable entirely or not feasibly attainable within the mortal evolutionary cycle

That would depend on how you define "mortal evolutionary cycle," actually.

which wholly supports my contention that there are technologies beyond the mortal ken.

Am I missing something?

Yes, you're missing several somethings, but as far as I can tell it's because we're arguing from very different perspectives.

Incidentally, the Infinite Improbability Drive is badly named- its use as a method of travel is entirely incidental to what it actually does. Its real ability is to make literally anything happen, by controlling probability. According to the books, if you can calculate exactly how improbable a thing is, then feed that number into the IID, then the machine makes that thing happen or appear right away. The IID was responsible, in one of its first uses, for instance, for turning a pair of powerful nuclear missiles into (1) a bowl of sentient petunias, and (2) a sperm whale. This was what it did when activated without first feeding in specific numbers, such that the activator was essentially just trusting to luck to Make Something Good (or anyway, Better Than Getting Blown Up) Happen. Given that the device is postulated inside a comedy story, most of its uses have been intentionally silly, but if such a device were buildable in reality it would be in essence a God machine. It would grant omnipotence in pretty much every meaningful sense of the term.

 

[historian]

Hey paradox42,

Aha, I see the crux of the issue here. You're basing your arguments solely on what you read in the Marvel comics universe, when others who have been stepping in to argue with you or point things out (like me) have not been.

I have been limiting myself largely to the Galactus vs. Reed vs. Doom debate. It's a bit more accesible to testing although I would be the first to admit it's not the only comparison one could make.

Although I wouldn't so I've based my opinion solely on comic books.

But the philosophical point you've been trying to make- which is that it is possible to create a technology that is so advanced that it is quite simply beyond the capacity of a more primitive mind to understand it no matter how much information said mind gets access to- is a general contention with implications that go far beyond the Marvel universe.

Absolutely, it is a broad ranging philosophical debate at its crux.

No, I don't, because I'm a believer in the opposite contention- that with enough access to information, anything is possible.

This is where we diverge but you do a nice job of clearly stating the issue.

I can understand the logic and the leap you are making. However, it's a proposition that is presently untestable as far as I can tell. Therefore, I believe reasonbable minds can differ.

I believe that with more information, we could figure them out- perhaps it would take us longer to do so than hypothetical alien beings with brains that process abstract information better than ours, but the processing itself (which is the critical step to figure out a technology) could still take place.

I think Ltheb's idea about cognitive limits vs. physical limits helps to draw out the point.

The lower the physical limit is, the more easily I could accept the argument that a mortal's cognitive limit could push until the physical limit is reached. The higher the physical limit, the less I am able to accept the idea of a mortal's limitless technological potential.

I am no scientist, even at an amateur limit although I have stumbled across an AI book by Kurzweil called the "Age of Spiritual Machines." It's been several years since I've reviewed it so bear with me through a lay rendition of something.

The book deals largely with technology predictions and where AI is going. Kurzweil poses an interesting distinction though regarding what higher intellect might be. In one sense, intelligence is one's ability simply to process information. If the highest mind is simply the ability to process the information faster and faster and better and better then it's conceivable that sometime in the very near future we may max the intellect scale through AI.

However, Kurzweil also acknowledges the possibility of a categorically different higher mind. One that is unattainable irrespective of what information is available at any processor speed.

Of course, it's for the reader to decide what's what. My leaning is towards the existence of a "higher" consciousness.

Given that we know a human author made up Galactus, and his technology, I would have to say no- Galactus's technology is not one of those things.

In the meta sense you're absolutely right.

However, by comparison, Galactus' technology is generally well ahead of mortal and in many cases immortal technologies.

But wasn't the point of this arguing to prove that some technologies are supposed to be beyond mortals' ability to understand or create? If the metahuman can bring the mortal "up to speed" on one technology, then why not others as well, given sufficient time?

This is another area where I think Ltheb's ideas about the physical limit is helpful.

If the ceiling to the physical limit of technology is lower (relatively speaking) then it's perfectly plausible to think that at some point the mortal finds himself on the same page with the metahuman. Because there is no "other page" then the mortal has technology unsurpassed.

At higher physical limits my argument would remain mortals simply won't get there no matter how much time they are allowed.

I would specify that the metahuman is capable of better information processing, but if we take both groups over an identical period of time then you are certainly correct. Since the metahuman "thinks faster," naturally it will discover new things faster than the mortals as long as they don't discover how to augment themselves to its level (so to speak).

With augmentation anything might be possible.

There is no "evolutionary curve" actually. Evolution is a neutral process, not a ladder. There is no such thing as "higher evolved" or "lower evolved-" there is just "evolved." Advancement is entirely a matter of perspective and circumstance. Creatures do not "advance" or "devolve," they simply become different.

I'm no expert here but my inclination is certainly to think about evolution in more linear terms. Maybe not perfectly linear, but linear nonetheless.

As best I can tell evolution simply better enables a species to survive. To the extent it does that regardless of circumstances it would seem a higher state to me.

Yes, you're missing several somethings, but as far as I can tell it's because we're arguing from very different perspectives.

I dare say I haven't missed anything.

Incidentally, the Infinite Improbability Drive is badly named- its use as a method of travel is entirely incidental to what it actually does. Its real ability is to make literally anything happen, by controlling probability. According to the books, if you can calculate exactly how improbable a thing is, then feed that number into the IID, then the machine makes that thing happen or appear right away.

A "GOD" machine, eh.

 

[Upper_Krust]

Hiya mate!

U_K having looked at your progress level chart and Galactus's entry i notice you put the ancients from Stargate on a higher tier that Galactus(even on a higher tier than the Ultimate nullifier). I am wondering why?

I think I possibly made a number of mistakes on that chart and/or used other peoples ideas about where certain cultures lie on the scale.

Technically Galactus is as old as a First One, if not older. Remember he survived the previous big crunch, where he was a scientist. So his case is probably special.

 

[historian]

I've had a few more thoughts that I think will contribute to the debate and I would credit all who have weighed in.

This is kind of thinking along the lines of a four part box using Ltheb's distinction between cognitive and physical limits.. I don't know how to replicate a box in thread but here's the idea.

First, ask whether you believe there is or isn't a physical limit. Second, ask whether you believe there is a cognitive limit for mortals. This yields four possibilities:

1. There is a physical limit but no cognitive limit -- this leads to the inevitable conclusion that mortals, given enough time, will reach the limits of technology. At any given point in time until infinite tech is reached then mortals might well lag behind other beings all other things remaining equal.

2. No physical limit and no cognitive limit -- this is a philosophical conundrum as far as I can tell but I'm guessing there are firghtening technologies in such a world. Things remaining equal mortals will always lag behind beings who process information faster but will also catch up and surpass prior iterations of faster processed technology. If there is a limit to time, mortals will finish behind more advanced beings.

3. No physical limit but a cognitive limit -- in this world there are technologies that are simply beyond the comprehension of mortals.

4. Physical limit with a cognitive limit -- depending on whether the cognitive limit is higher or lower than the physical limit mortals will either reach the ends of technology or simply fail to understand its highest level. Mortals will continue to lag behind beings with higher cognitive limits but either will or won't catch up at some point given infinite time and depending whether the cognitive limit is higher or lower than the physical limit.


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