Immortals Handbook - Grimoire (Artifacts, Epic Magic discussion)

[Ltheb Silverfrond]

It might be worth discarding the "two doubles equals a triple" d20 convention and go back to the mathematical way of doing it- that would mean 3 or 4 times requires two applications of the double effect, 5-8 times requires three, and so on. I haven't really explored this much myself, but that "two doublings equals a tripling" rule has never sat very well with my sensibilities anyway.

I think the 2 doubles thing was kindof put in place in case there were rules created that multiplied things - Like a spell that if the creature failed its save, it would take double damage. So If I crit with my sword, it would not take quadruple damage (probobly killing it or useing death from massive damage).
Yea the doubling thing hurts epic spellcasting as a whole. Perhaps new, more expensive, or feat required, modifiers for epic spells could be created. (Like with a feat, you can take a +25 to the spells DC and double the range, and it could be worded to double it's own previous range increase too)

 

[paradox42]

I think the 2 doubles thing was kindof put in place in case there were rules created that multiplied things - Like a spell that if the creature failed its save, it would take double damage. So If I crit with my sword, it would not take quadruple damage (probobly killing it or useing death from massive damage).
Yea the doubling thing hurts epic spellcasting as a whole. Perhaps new, more expensive, or feat required, modifiers for epic spells could be created. (Like with a feat, you can take a +25 to the spells DC and double the range, and it could be worded to double it's own previous range increase too)

I know why it was put in place, I was reading every article and designer interview I could get my hands on around the time of the 3E release.

My point was, perhaps for this particular case, it's worth removing and going back to a proper exponential increase. It easily gets around the problem of having to use +198 Spellcraft to just get a measly 2000-foot radius out of a base 20-foot radius, for example; if you really double instead of just adding 20 each time you apply the increase, you only need to apply it 7 times (meaning, +14 if you're paying +2 per application) to get up to a 2560-foot radius. Of course, if that seems too easy by contrast to the original, you can tweak it to pick a different exponential base, like one-and-a-half instead of two, or something.

 

[Ltheb Silverfrond]

I always thought it interesting that the ultra-powerful/broken epic spells were the lowest DC ones, but the weak but flavorful ones ended up with DCs in the hundreds. (Ex: Summon Singularity, as the DC is based on Volume, vs A Living Permenent Storm of Vengance)
The other thing epic spellcasting looked to be good for was Artifact Creation. Just use the Creation effects to get, say, a sword made of pure force. Then Use Fortify to give it an enhancement or two... Too bad the DCs end up in the Thousands.
At any rate, I think any improvements/additions to epic spellcasting would be great - as it stands, the only limits currently are your ability to bend the seeds to the effects you need.
Heres a point to discuss: With the printing of Champions of Ruin (Forgotten Realms evil suppliment), they list that for a +25 increase to the DC, a single factor of the spell, like range, or damage, can be based on Caster Level. (So if have a spell that does 20d6, and add 25 to the DC, it does 20d6/level. )
Is this totally broken, or is it just what the system needed?
I like it, but it screams abuse.

 

[Upper_Krust]

Hey all!

I know why it was put in place, I was reading every article and designer interview I could get my hands on around the time of the 3E release.

My point was, perhaps for this particular case, it's worth removing and going back to a proper exponential increase. It easily gets around the problem of having to use +198 Spellcraft to just get a measly 2000-foot radius out of a base 20-foot radius, for example; if you really double instead of just adding 20 each time you apply the increase, you only need to apply it 7 times (meaning, +14 if you're paying +2 per application) to get up to a 2560-foot radius. Of course, if that seems too easy by contrast to the original, you can tweak it to pick a different exponential base, like one-and-a-half instead of two, or something.

I think thats the major worry with this approach that it becomes too easy to get really crazy results.

But I think one way to counter that is to include some kind of costs inherant to the casting, EXP being the most obvious.

Another idea may be to have Int bonus set as the 'Epic Spell' Prereq. rather than just 10 + spell level it would therefore be 10 + 2/spell level of an epic spell.

So 120th-level (Big Bang) spell would require:

111 AMC feats, Int 250 and a potentially monstrous EXP output (621,600 off the top of my head).

A 50th-level (Planet Shattering) spell would require:

41 AMC feats, Int 90 and 86,100 EXP.

A 20th-level (Teleport City) spell would require:

11 AMC feats, Int 50 and 6,600 EXP.

A 19th-level Fireball (same range and area of effect, with all the extra spell levels increasing its damage) would deal 160d6 (average 560). 10 AMC feats, Int 48, 5,500 EXP.

If we assume a minimum 37th-level to be able to cast it, a 37th-level Fighter you would imagine as having 680 or so hit points, and would probably make the save.

A 29th-level Fireball would deal 960d6 damage (average 3360). 20 AMC feats, Int 68, 21,000 EXP.

If we assume a base 57th-level to be able to cast it, a 57th-level Fighter should have 1700 hp or so, would probably make the save.

From these we can also assume that stock Immortal, Sidereal and Eternal magics are:

15th-level spells = base Immortal
30th-level spells = base Sidereal
60th-level spells = base Eternal
120th-level spells = base Supernal

 

[Cheiromancer]

Potentially yoink-worthy. Thanks Krusty!

(xp formula is 100*n*(n+1)/2, where n = spell level - 9)

This is only for spells that use "real doublings" instead of the "two doubles is a triple" kind of D&D math, right?

 

[Upper_Krust]

Hiya mate!

Potentially yoink-worthy. Thanks Krusty!

Thats what I am here for dude!

(xp formula is 100*n*(n+1)/2, where n = spell level - 9)

Yes, theres just no pulling the wool over your eyes...dagnabbit.

This is only for spells that use "real doublings" instead of the "two doubles is a triple" kind of D&D math, right?

Yes, although that may be the basis of the spell system if it all works out. I think having two sets ddt (double-double = triple) and ddq (double-double = quodruple) is too confusing for people. So it'll either be one or the other.

 

[Ltheb Silverfrond]

An alternative to Xp costs in high-end spells would be to integrate Quintessense costs, perhaps split evenly so it doesnt just drain the deity's/mortal's levels.
Or an option to substitute Quintessence for Xp, perhaps a max of half the Xp, and maybe not 1:1, like 5:1. (Since gods can get quintessence easy, just tell their clerics to do stuff )

 

[Cheiromancer]

Here are a few things I posted many months ago about balancing the (epic) spells above 9th-level.

20th-level spell ~ Teleport City
30th-level spell ~ Stasise Country
40th-level Spell ~ Anti-Magic Entire Planets Surface
50th-level spell ~ Destroy Planet
60th-level spell ~ Create Sun
70th-level spell ~ Summon Black Hole

90th-level spell ~ Move Galaxy

120th-level spell ~ Create Big Bang (So the base Prereqs for this spell would be Int 130 and 111 Automatic Metamagic Capacity feats). I wonder what the minimum level to cast this is...?

I was thinking about this earlier today. Ten applications of widen (at +3 levels each) and the ddq rule will increase all dimensions of an effect by 1000. Disintegrate will make a 10 foot cube of matter disappear. Times by 1000 is about 2 miles on a side. Another 1000 and you are talking a 2000 mile cube. A sphere 2500 miles in diameter has about the same volume. Mercury's diameter is about 3000 miles; Mars's is a little over 4000 miles. So 20 doublings would be enough for a small planet, and 22 would disintegrate the earth. Assuming it failed its save. I forget what the saving throw bonus is for a planet.

Anyway, an antimagic shell doesn't have a saving throw. It covers about the same volume as a disintegrate and is also a sixth level spell. 22 doublings would make an antimagic shell that would encompass the earth. (Add a factor to make it touch delivered of course).

So I'm thinking that the difference between "Anti-Magic Entire Planets Surface" and "Destroy Planet" is mostly to ensure that the planet fails its saving throw vs disintegrate. Suppose adding a +20 heighten would be enough. Then 2 levels of metamagic = 1 level of epic spell. Then the +60 levels of heighten = 30 levels of epic spell.

According to this chain of reasoning, anti-magic entire planet's surface should be 30 something levels higher than antimagic shell. So about 40. And destroy planet should be 40 something levels higher than disintegrate. So about 50.

In fact, scaling up a PHB spell to affect a planet will basically be a 40-something level spell if there is no save, and 50-something level spell if there is. Why don't we say 40 and 50, with the understanding that we might be talking about fairly small planets.

Making an item is a bit more difficult. The minor creation line of spells tops out at 20 cubic feet at 20th level. So we need almost 10 doublings just to get it to around the 1000 cubic feet. Using permanency as our model, we'd have to pay 500 xp per spell level to make it permanent. And hope no one dispels it!

Anyway. To make a planet will be about +15 levels higher than destroying one, so level 70 for an earth-like planet, and require about 35 000 xp. The Sun, though, is about a million miles across, so we'd need about 8 or 9 more doublings to make a Sun in the sky. If I'm right, then creating a Sun is about a 80th level spell. A black hole is about the mass of 3 to 5 suns, so you don't need too many more doublings than that. In fact, if you use your major creation base spell to create something dense (like lead), then it might be easier to create a black hole than a Sun. So a black hole would be about 80th level too.

Of course, it might be that a Sun is just a really big wall of fire, shaped into a ball. A wall of fire at 20th level has an area of 8000 square feet. Call it 1000 square metres. The sun has a surface area of 6 million million million meters, so that would be about 60 doublings. You don't have to increase the thickness of the wall very much (if at all), so this is only about +60 spell levels over the base cost of a wall of fire. That's about right; a 70th level spell.

There are over 1 billion suns in a small galaxy. I think you'd need about 60 epic spell levels above a planet-affecting spell to move a galaxy. 1000-fold increase from a planet to a sun, and three 1000-fold increases thereafter. Plus some factors to cover the distances involved; both to include all those suns in the range of the spell, and then to teleport it another distance.

Hmmm. A 20th level teleport moves you 2000 miles. A light year is 6 trillion miles. I think five thousand-fold increases in range would be needed to move a galaxy about 300 million ly. So about +30 epic spell levels.

I'm thinking about 140th level to move a galaxy.

My numbers are drifting further and further away from UK's benchmarks, so I'll stop here. A more accurate estimate of metamagic spell levels to Epic Spell levels would help. If the ratio is 3:1 instead of 2:1 then my numbers will shrink accordingly. It would also be helpful to discuss how much of a boost to spell DCs is necessary to ensure a planet fails its saving throw; around +20 or +30 would fit well with this model.

 

[Ltheb Silverfrond]

I think those numbers were just estimates, perhaps even drawn up a long time ago; Even if you wrote down your final product for such things, unless you list your reasoning, you may forget it. When the bestiary came out I decided to do an ad-hoc Black Hole Golem for fun. Now I can't for the life of me figure out why i has 3072 HD.
I hope the system decided apon is simple, like the metamagic idea. If I want to cast "Ltheb's Mystical ICBM Scudstorm" Ill just empower and Twin a magic missile spell a few hundred times.
While with epic spellcasting, it seems the creative and combinative ease out weighs the holes in the system, none the less they are there.

 

[Cheiromancer]

I'm hoping this will jog his memory.

I'm guessing that the estimates were based on an idea about the relationship between metamagic feats and epic spell levels, and some back-of-the-envelope calculations related to the scale of astronomical phenomena. If I'm in the right ballpark he can probably help me narrow it down a bit more.