Immune to crits?

[Goblyns Hoard]

Why are constructs and all undead immune to crits. For some of them it simply doesn't makie sense.

I'll agree you can't crit an ooze, or a slime... they're a homogenous mass one bit no different to the rest. And the incorporeal undead, same thing goes there... it's just a spirit form so one bit doesn't get damaged more than the rest.

But skeletons, golems, zombies etc... these guys should be subject to crits. Afterall you can target bits of their bodies which are weaker and which would have a more dramatic effect on their ability to fight. Specifically I'm thinking about the joints - shoulders, elbows, hips, ankles, wrists and my personal favourite - the knee.

Take out a zombie's knee. OK it's not dead, and it's not hurt a great deal more than if you put your sword through it's chest... but it is suddenly crwaling around rather than walking. Or it's trying desperately to balance on a single leg while it fights. As the Hit Point system is an abstraction this has a dramatic effect on your ability to put in the 'killer blow' that would take it out fully. As it crawls toward you it practically opens itself up for a CDG.

Take out the elbow, and suddenly it's not working so well at hitting you. It's undead so it's hardly going to adapt quickly enough to hit you with the stump. And the result is that you can get in a fraction closer on that side and again are more likely to get in the important strike.

Skeletons, ghouls, zombies, constructs - they all have these weaknesses. OK so they're not the same as 'normal' crits where you going for vital points, but they should still be allowed.

How about a system to make it harder to crit these creatures. You can't do so when your character first encounters them, and after you encounter them your BAB needs to go up by +1 before you can - representing you leraning more and thinking about the weak spots these creatures suffer from. Has to occur separately for corporeal undead and constructs, but for the second group you only have to go up a level rather than your BAB go up (cause the logic is similar)

Let me know what you think

The Hoard

 

[Darklone]

Logic is relative. You could argue that hacking a zombie to pieces by targeting the weak points is the normal way how you decrease its hitpoints.

While a critical hit against a human might be hitting the neck. You don't have to decapitate him, it might still kill him. Cut a zombies head away and it will still try to kill you.

 

[cordell]

Along the same lines of explanation, try this:

Hitting a human in the knee with a longsword, normal hit, does d8 plus bonuses. A sneak-attack targets a vital area - say the medial collateral ligament (sp?) - which is extremely painful for a human, and, therefore, cripples him a little, doing double damage.

Hitting a zombie in the knee with a longsword, normal hit, does d8 plus bonuses. A sneak-attack which targets the medial collateral ligament doesn't matter, since zombies feel no pain, and they are not using the same mechanics for "walking" as a human does - MAGIC animates the zombie and allows him to walk, not *blood* pumping through a *heart* with exchange of energy through cell walls.

Of course, this explanation probably won't help you much (or convince you), if the real meaning of your post was "my rogue character should be able to affect more monsters with his super-powerful attack". I hope that's not the case

 

[hero4hire]

It has always bothered me that you couldn't crit a vampire.

I always imagined a crit on a vamp would result in a heart shot or decapitation.

 

[Goblyns Hoard]

While a critical hit against a human might be hitting the neck. You don't have to decapitate him, it might still kill him. Cut a zombies head away and it will still try to kill you.

But that zombie is significantly more affected by a blow that decapitates him than a similar blow to the body. THe blow to the body just damages him, the decapitation prevents him from seeing you (OK assumes that they still 'see' using their eyes and not some 'life sense', but that's my assumption). Given that the hit point system is such an abstraction you have just dramatically improved your position in the battle, making it more likely that you would slay the zombie. An accurate way of reflecting that is in the hit point system. As d20 does not have an official 'called shot' system (that I know of), you can't have a decapitating blow - otherwise you could impose normal penalties for your opponent being unable to see you. However it would be a plausible means of taking down a zombie effectively, so the only way to represent it is the hit point system - by allowing crits.

 

[Goblyns Hoard]

Hitting a zombie in the knee with a longsword, normal hit, does d8 plus bonuses. A sneak-attack which targets the medial collateral ligament doesn't matter, since zombies feel no pain, and they are not using the same mechanics for "walking" as a human does - MAGIC animates the zombie and allows him to walk, not *blood* pumping through a *heart* with exchange of energy through cell walls.

OK so no blood pumping through the knee - not my point. I'm talking about the fact that the knee no longer supports the zombie/skelton's weight. He can't stand on it so he is a less effective fighter. I remember landing badly on my ankle while sparring. The rest of the fight I was clearly favouring the other foot and was significantly slower in moving... and I hadn't really done any damage to the ankle. It wasn't pretty and it didn't last much longer. Imagine if your zombie only has one shin because the other one has been removed with a single well placed strike. The fight is going significantly in your favour. As I said above the hit point system is an abstraction that reflects the likelihood of you 'surviving the fight'. Given that you can now significantly out maneuveur you're enemy you are significantly more likely to survive - hence the reduction in your enemy's hit points reflected by critical damage.

And I'm the DM not a rogue trying to up my damage output.

 

[Hand of Evil]

Shock, this is added to what crits mean to me, no not "oh my god" type of shock but trauma the mental shut down of function. It is not just the wound, it is your body and mind dealing with the wound, undead and such do not deal with this.

 

[Goblyns Hoard]

Shock

Nice point - shock is probably a very important element of a crit to a living, bleeding creature.

But it doesn't eliminate the fact that a single well placed blow can have a significant effect on the outcome of a fight with a corporeal undead, or a construct that has similar characteristics - in terms of requiring it's 'head' to see or legs to carry it around.

 

[Christian]

Different blows do cause different amounts of damage-that's what the damage roll is for. The 'spread' of damage amounts from a weapon blow is smaller for an undead (etc.) creature-there's no way to do as much damage in one blow as there is for a living being. And this effect is simulated by making them immune to crits and sneak attacks ...

 

[shilsen]

Logic is relative.

Best point yet. What seems logical to one of us will not necessarily to another. Considering that undead don't get Con bonuses to hp, their immunities are a very necessary aspect. Which is why I like the no crits on undead rule and I can justify it in many ways, including the ones people have described above.