Implement Vs. AC = No No, correct?

[Rechan]

I've noticed a few powers that a class will use an Implement-based attack, targeting a monster's AC. For instance, Spiritual Weapon is an Implement power, but when the power makes attacks, it is Wisdom vs. AC.

I find this problematic. An implement targeting a Non-Armor Defense (NAD) is on par with a weapon targeting AC. But when they reverse, a Weapon-based attack targeting a NAD is much more likely to hit. An Implement striking AC is much more likely to miss.

The reason being, the Implement lacks that +2/+3 proficiency bonus to attack against AC.

Is it not bad design to have an implement power targeting AC, for this reason?

 

[Tale]

Not if it's designed with the intent that the power hits less often. Look at powers that have +2 to the attack roll for the flipside.

 

[Dr_Ruminahui]

Well, that would depend on what the power does.

Perhaps it is quite powerful, and the lower chance of success balances that?

Spiritual weapon is quite powerful - it automatically gives combat advantage to the target to all your allies. Additionally, by sustaining it, the cleric essentially gets an extra attack every round for only a minor action, though it does cost a move as well if he wants to hit a new target.

Now, those might not be so great on a controller, but that's a pretty decent power for a leader.

Myself, I see the automatic combat advantage as the big thing, allowing the cleric to really help out the rest of the party by letting the rogue sneak attack and the others gain a bonus to hit, which is good for their dropping their own dailies on the target. The chance to get some hits in is icing on the cake - and allows the cleric to essentially get two attacks a round, something they can't normally do. As well, given that the clerics typically don't have much use for their minor action makes the power even better.

Sure, the magic weapon attack is unlikely to hit, but even if it doesn't its still giving out that beautiful combat advantage to your whole party.

Dr. Ruminahui - shrink with a spear

 

[N8Ball]

Is it not bad design to have an implement power targeting AC, for this reason?

I agree with the previous poster that it's not bad design if it was intended to hit less often.

Spiritual weapon I think is designed that way because even if it doesn't hit anything, it's still granting combat advantage to all your allies AND letting you attack with just a minor action as long as you sustain it.

Part of it's sweetness is that the CA can stack with other power bonuses granted by the Cleric or Warlord, and doesn't force your rouge to hang himself out there on the unfriendly side of the battle lines to get flanking.

Edit: Darn it, Doc, you beat me you all the good points! I really need to learn to type faster.

 

[Nail]

As well, given that the clerics typically don't have much use for their minor action .....

Errr.....Healing Word? Sounds useful.....

 

[Rechan]

My main concern are certain powers in a 3rd party product. I wish to write a review of the products, and I am questioning the strength of some of these powers.

I'll give an abbreviated example of the ones I think are questionable:

Encounter, Warlock Attack 3, Immediate Interrupt (trigger: When target attempts a grab). Con vs. AC; 2d8+Con damage, grab attempt fails. Pact power: add + Int bonus to attack roll.

Encounter, Warlock attack 13, Immediate Reaction (Trigger, When enemy has combat advantage, can use when surprised). Con vs. AC; 2d8+Con dmg, shift 2 squares. Pact bonus: target takes -2 to attack rolls (save ends).

These two I'm rather underwhelmed. First of all, they're rather narrow in focus. The Warlock is picking an Encounter power that really, he should be using every fight. But being grabbed is a less frequent thing, especially for a Warlock who is likely going to be away from combat. Same with the Combat Advantage business (although more frequent). If the second power was an Immediate Interrupt, rather than a Reaction, then I think it would be worth it.

But neither of these are really doing anything that justifies it, especially given that they're not going to come up as frequently unless the Warlock intentionally puts himself in danger, just to use his powers.

Encounter, Warlock attack 3, Cha vs. AC; 2d6+Cha dmg. If target has hit you during this turn, add int to damage, you crit on a 19 or 20. Pact boon: On hit, push target 1 square. If you score a crit, target takes -2 until end of your next turn.

One reason I think this power is bad is that it has too much going on. Too many variables to track, that effect matters. And I don't think that fiddling with the crit is a good design. But then, I look down on crit-based powers, so I'm biased. Regardless, I don't think this constitutes the -2 or 3 to attack.

Warlock Attack 13, Range 10, Cha vs. AC; 1d10+Cha thunder dmg, push target 2 squares. Effect: Choose a word (attack, save, check). Each time the target rolls a die associated with that word, you subtract 1d10 from the target's roll (save ends).

This one is all over the place. I'm not sure really what to make of it, or how to compare it, balance wise.

Warlock Attack 13, Range 10, Cha vs. AC; 2d8+Cha dmg, target is pushed 2, knocked prone. Make a secondary attack vs. Target; Cha vs. Ref; 2d8+Cha dmg, target is stunned until the end of your next turn. Pact boon: add Int to secondary attack.

Another "all over the place". The thing that makes this one powerful is the secondary effect. But, the secondary effect is also not likely to hit; the target is prone, granting them a +2 to AC vs. the attack; even the + to int, that practically cancels it out. So there is a Chance that both attacks hit, but it's also fairly difficult.

ENcounter, Warlock Attack 11, Range 5, Con vs. AC; 2d8+Con dmg, slide target 3, target is immobilized (save ends, with -3 to save). Effect: Each time target fails immobilization save, it takes 5+Int damage. Successful save, 3+int damage.

This one is worth it, imho. This one is rather powerful, I think the tradeoff is definitely good.

 

[Dr_Ruminahui]

Errr.....Healing Word? Sounds useful.....

Hmm... for some reason I thought that was a standard... good thing I'm only DMing.

Dr. Ruminahui - shrink with a spear

 

[Nail]

Wow. There is a lot going on with each of those powers. Too complicated, IMO.

 

[Nail]

Hmm... for some reason I thought that was a standard... good thing I'm only DMing.

Your players know, I trust?

For the first THREE sessions of one of the games I play in, the cleric kept thinking that using Healing Word was a Standard Action. To be honest, it took the rest of us a while to catch on that he was making that mistake.

Oh well.

 

[Dr_Ruminahui]

Your players know, I trust?

I hope so... we've only been playing for one session, so its a bit hard to tell. Our cleric tends to be a bit of a rules lawyer, so I imagine he has it right. I'll keep my eye open for that, though...

It wouldn't be our first error - the TWF ranger was adding her strength bonus to damage for twin strike, and we didn't figure out that she shouldn't be until she asked what the point of her encounter power is, as the only real difference between it and the at will twin strike is that the encounter DOES add Str to damage.

At the moment, I'm more interested in people having fun than nailing down all the rules - we'll deal with those as they come up.


Dr. Ruminahui - shrink with a spear