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D&D 5E Impossible Ability Test

Whoah, hold on!
I established that a literate person CAN know about things they haven't personally seen. I didn't say anything about specific probabilities.
Sure, the percentage of people reading this thread who could recognize a camel might exceed 95%, because, as you say, we're literate members of a civilization with mass media. The probability of the elven scholar having seen a picture of a camel might be much lower, maybe as low as 5%. But it isn't *flatly impossible*, under appropriate circumstances, to recognize something one haven't personally seen.

True- and I've said that, if the monster (or whatever) is something local to the pc's home area or otherwise is something where there is a justification for them to know, then I'll usually just tell them. "You recognize these things as gnolls."


I am, at the moment, discussing the difference between "zero, no roll possible" and "nonzero, there is SOME chance", rather than the differences between 5%, 50% and 95%.

Sure. And clearly this is a matter of taste. I'm more and more aware that I'm solidly against player empowerment in a lot of ways. I know that this makes me, in some eyes, a terrible meanie of a DM who is constantly punishing the players for whatever, but actually, in play, it turns out that my players really, really dig it- both my old players and the new guys who've barely started with me.

As I've said upthread, this is really a playstyle issue, as so many things are. Personally I feel that the game is more fun with more mystery in more places. I don't do the easy identification of magic items on a short rest, either, and I firmly believe that it improves the game for me, based on the style of game I want to run.

Also, "literate" already means we're NOT talking about a typical person in a typical D&D setting, assuming that 90% of humanity in a low-tech setting are illiterate farmers.

This is a complete tangent, but I also really preferred it when the assumption was NOT that all pcs were automatically literate. Anyone else remember having to invest skill points (or rather, nonweapon proficiencies) in Read/Write?
 

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As others have said, it depends on the social contract. Personally, I lean more towards "The DM is right, even when he's wrong." But, that assumes the DM isn't on a power trip or a complete jerk (however you want to define "jerk").

Let me ask you this: Are you, in general, happy/comfortable with the way your DM handles the game? If so, you've got a good DM for the group. In this case, you've fallen victim to the fact that DMs are also human and prone to acting such. No one bats 1.000. If you come at him adversarially, you've reduced his ability to gracefully back away from that ruling and/or just do it differently next time. If it's really important, then you should discuss it. Either way, keep in mind that two wrongs don't make a right.

I've been gaming for just over 30 years, and about 75% of that has been as a GM. Because folks keep coming to me and asking me to run games, even when there are other GMs available, I assume I'm reasonably competent. I still screw up. Sometimes, I have streaks of bad rulings or evenings that just kinda suck. I also generally know when something's not right, even if I'm not quite sure what.

I've had players who would pull out various source books and confront me anytime they disagreed with something I said. Because part of the GM's role is to have hidden knowledge and lay plans that provide entertaining challenges for the players, there's an associated authority that must come with the territory. Heck, just to keep things moving, you sometimes need to have a final arbiter, which is why Gygax often used the term "referee". That dynamic is all part of the back and forth over rulings, whether or not any of the parties are consciously aware of it. Being confrontational about a bad ruling, especially in the heat of the moment, puts the GM in a spot where he isn't just defending one call, but his ability to function in the role he's been assigned by the group. Sometimes you make a call you know isn't perfect, but it's the best you can do, at the time, and the secret knowledge you have about the game world tells you that it really isn't worth derailing the game to come up with the "perfect" ruling.

That said, this only applies if the GM is generally good and/or is a beginner who is still working on his skills. If the GM is on a power trip, confronting him isn't really going to do anything other than give him an opportunity to flex his muscle, anyway, so it's still not the best approach. But, if he's generally adversarial, you might have a conversation about that, using this as a specific example. The GM has more impact/authority in a game than any other player, but it comes with just as much responsibility. In fact, I'd say it's the responsibility that begets the authority, not the other way around. If a GM is engaging in bullying or other inappropriate social behavior, then the group ultimately needs to decide whether to continue to allow that and/or how to encourage other behavior. I just really want to caution you to know the difference between a GM who is not taking his responsibility seriously and one who is inexperienced, having a bad day, or just plain tired.

My current players, much to they're credit, have learned how to question a ruling without being confrontational. They may say, "That doesn't sound quite right," or, "That's not playing out how I envisioned my character. Is there a way I should have built it to do X," or something like that. Sometimes I give the PC the benefit of the doubt, sometimes I don't, but the approach the players take gives me the opportunity to say, "Here's how I'm going to rule it, right now, to keep the game moving. I'll review it, between sessions, and we can talk about it." Sometimes, I change my mind -- I had a thread, here, a couple months ago to get input on sleeping/ambush rules. Sometimes, I decide it stands. I may or may not justify it much. I also don't retcon the original session, but that's one of the reasons I tend to favor the PCs if I'm in doubt. The other answer that I occasionally give during a session is, "You know, your character doesn't think that's right, either. There may be something else going on that could be handled in-game."
 

Seems to me this is exactly the sort of thing disadvantage was invented for - so make the check, but with disadvantage as you've likely never encountered it "in the flesh" before.

I'd do it the old way -- just have a high DC. "Sure, you can scour your memory of old text books to see if you recall a sketch or blurb relating to the creature at hand. DC 20. Roll for it."
 

I'll ask again: Where, in the 5e books, does it give a "Monster Knowledge" skill or other rules for knowing stuff about monsters?

Skills only enter the equation if there's actually a skill for the action in question.
The existence of skills proves that the game cares about mechanical representation for information that the character would have gained before the game started, which distinguishes it from some older editions of the game. It is within reasonable expectations for the skill system that it could cover information about some creatures, where appropriate, even if they don't specifically call out that it's a DC 17 Intelligence (Religion) check to know how Mummy Rot works.
 

The existence of skills proves that the game cares about mechanical representation for information that the character would have gained before the game started, which distinguishes it from some older editions of the game. It is within reasonable expectations for the skill system that it could cover information about some creatures, where appropriate, even if they don't specifically call out that it's a DC 17 Intelligence (Religion) check to know how Mummy Rot works.

So in other words, monster knowledge isn't addressed anywhere, leaving whether or not it's a "reasonable expectation" up to each dm and each table.
 

That definitely sounds like those odds are a bit out of the ordinary. Giving a DC of 25 and then adding disadvantage on top of that seems a little punitive-- depending on how much the player wants to know, of course.

True, but if it were a percentile roll it's easier to figure out a % chance that seems reasonable. My example, with a DC of 25 with a +7 and disadvantage actually required me to look on my "advantage/disadvantage" sheet I have for the percentage chance to succeed. It's not something you can just figure out right a way. Without disadvantage you'd have a 15% chance of succeeding and that, to me, seems WAY too high for the situation. If I didn't want to do math, I'd just eyeball a percentage and have them roll percentile dice. "This is really obscure; you have a 2% chance of success. Roll."

If the PC or NPC wanted to do research, charge some gp per day and add a cumulative chance of succeeding up to a maximum of X and then they can't try any more. Or something.
 

Literacy

Default literacy and default illiteracy could be setting-dependent. I'd be surprised if any of the Nine Walkers were illiterate. As for Achilles and Odysseus, I don't know.

The D&D conception of wizard makes assumptions of literacy, eg having a spell *book*. In 5E, that could easily be a proficiency granted at level 1 of the class. Sorcerers, warlocks - maybe not.
 


The DM is well within its right to declare that a given creature cannot be identified by any of the PCs because they never been in the desert and seen one. But i think it would be a stretch to assume that PCs can never identify any creatures pertaining to places they haven't been before and thus offer no checks. Lore, tales, stories, paintings, tomes and the like could all give clues to lead to a positive or negative identification of a creature IMO and as a DM i would not close the door but rather let the player roll and feed them, right or false! #MWAHAHA! :devil:
 

Knowledge compromises the value of exploration. It means players do not leave their room at the inn because they are relatively self-assured they know everything going on beyond those walls. This is part of why Sage is an NPC class. Book study and training are not the same as the real thing. Exploration is essential to the learning act and gaining experience in a class.
 

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