Impress the Masses (metamagic feat)

[Cheiromancer]

I was thinking about the spells that have level caps (daze, sleep, hypnotism, etc.) and decided to design a feat that would make them work better. Impress the Masses is the result.

This feat is designed with the following spells in mind:

Cause Fear, Color Spray, Control Undead, Daze, Enthrall, Hypnotic Pattern, Hypnotism, Lesser Geas, Mass Charm, Rainbow Pattern, Scare, Sleep.

Spells whose effects wear off will also be helped, since a target whose hit dice is low enough may receive a -4 to its save. Spells with permanent effects (e.g. Circle of Death) cannot be enhanced with Impress the Masses.

Anyway, here's the text of the feat:


Impress the Masses[Metamagic]

Your spells have a greater effect on weaker individuals.

Prerequisite: Arcane spellcaster level 1+.

Benefit: You may increase the level at which you cast a spell. For each level you raise the spell, all targets of that spell are considered to have 1 less hit die. A creature whose hit dice are effectively reduced by this feat to 0 or less receives a -4 to any saving throws vs the spell. This feat only affects spells whose effects have a non-instantaneous duration. For example, Cloud Kill is not affected, but Color Spray is.

Comments?

 

[Crothian]

Nice idea, I don't really see anything wrong with it. God job.

 

[kreynolds]

God job.

"God" job? Wow. That must be a really BIG compliment.

 

[the Jester]

Why only arcane spellcasters?

 

[Plane Sailing]

I really like the idea, but I think the implementation may have some loopholes in it at the moment. Rainbow Pattern normally affects 24HD of creatures. Increasing the spell level by 1 to 5th level would *double* the number of 1HD creatures you could affect while having a limited change on big foes (who would still be captivated by the basic spell anyway).

Basically, giving targets "virtual reduced HD" can affect the number affected as well as the max HD of target. It is giving (in some cases) two benefits for the price of 1.

For things like sleep, colour spray etc. would it work well enough to just say "each higher level you prepare it at increases the HD caps/effects by 1". So Sleep prepared as a 5th level spell would affect 2-8 HD creatures up to 8HD max. This could then be improved by Empower to up the numbers affected too. A 5th level colour spray would KO up to 6HD, blind 7-8HD and stun over 9HD.

I'm not sure how I'd suggest changing things really, but I think that there is a loophole of some kind here... I think it is worth thinking through what would happen with each of the different spells, and with targets at different HD, just to see how consistent the metamagic would be.

Regards,

 

[Cheiromancer]

I really like the idea, but I think the implementation may have some loopholes in it at the moment. Rainbow Pattern normally affects 24HD of creatures. Increasing the spell level by 1 to 5th level would *double* the number of 1HD creatures you could affect while having a limited change on big foes (who would still be captivated by the basic spell anyway).

Basically, giving targets "virtual reduced HD" can affect the number affected as well as the max HD of target. It is giving (in some cases) two benefits for the price of 1./

If Rainbow Pattern is raised by +1 to 5th level, it would affect an unlimited number of 1 HD creatures, and up to 24 creatures with two hit dice each. The 1 HD creatues are reduced to 0 HD as far as the spell is concerned, and so don't count toward the limit. The 2 HD creatures are reduced to 1 HD, and so the spell can affect 24 of them.

This effect is intentional, and is actually the basis for the name of the feat. I think it works well for the spells I list- have I missed any examples that create an abusive combo?

Jester:

Almost all the spells that benefit by this feat are arcane. The ones that aren't have quite a different feel to them- they are spells like Animal Trance, Calm Animals, Command Plants, Holy Word (non-lethal effects only), Insect Plague, and Repel Vermin.

And so I thought it would be most flavorful to restrict it to arcane casters. Except I didn't really- a druid who has picked up a level of sorcerer can use this feat on his druid spells.

 

[bensei]

I agree.
As it is now it's very nice, but strongly overpowered.

Imagine Sleep being raised to a 5th level spell via you feat, and you are being attacked by six 4th level fighters, barbarians.
The effect: 2-8 4th level creatures fall asleep (CdG!) very likely, since the saving throw is (due to the -4) the same as for a 5th level spell. This effect is much too powerful against several 4th level attackers.

So IMHO the problems are:
- The -4 to the saving throw is way too much, compared to the +1 from heighten spell.
- Reducing the hit dice of each target is too strong.

Ideas:
- Do not have the saving throw increased. If the caster raises the spell too much, it's his own risk (actually a nice 'gambling' effect).
- Instead of reducing the targets' HD, increase the number of affected HD by 1 per d4 rolled and the max. number of HD by 1 for each level increase (Example: This feat applied 2 times to Sleep makes it affect 2d4+4 and creatures with maximum 7 HD are affected).

 

[Cheiromancer]

Imagine Sleep being raised to a 5th level spell via your feat, and you are being attacked by six 4th level fighters, barbarians.
The effect: 2-8 4th level creatures fall asleep (CdG!) very likely, since the saving throw is (due to the -4) the same as for a 5th level spell. This effect is much too powerful against several 4th level attackers.

The caster is at least 9th level, and these are optimal circumstances for using Impress the Masses. A small party of 4th level fighters who are in "fireball formation" should be fairly easy pickings.

But it's not quite as easy as one might think: you have to get all of them to CdG them- if a few make their saves they are completely unaffected, and can wake up someone who failed their save with a standard action.

Suppose it was a wizard with Fireball instead of Sleep, and Empower instead of Impress the Masses. If the fighters all fail their saves, they are dead, not just CdG bait. If a few make their saves, they are sorely injured (not completely unaffected), and they can't take a standard action to revive their dead comrades.

And if they are 5th level, the -4 doesn't come into play. Whereas an empowered fireball is nearly as good against 5th level fighters as against 4th level fighters.

The -4 to the saving throw is way too much, compared to the +1 from heighten spell.

Comparison with Heighten Spell is a little unfair (Heighten Spell is a weak feat). And Heighten Spell is more flexible- you can raise a spell by +1, or up to 9th level. And it always affects the save DC's- not just for creatures with low hit dice.

I think that a 5th level spell should wipe out a bunch of foes who are 4th level or lower, and who have obligingly gathered themselves into a tight formation. But what do others think?

 

[bensei]

Originally posted by Cheiromancer
Suppose it was a wizard with Fireball instead of Sleep, and Empower instead of Impress the Masses. If the fighters all fail their saves, they are dead, not just CdG bait.

Sleep is a much more useful effect than Fireball (unless one plays pure hack and slay style). It's discrete, can be used against guards without warning others, can be used inside a town, one can easily capture impotant persons without risking to kill them, can be used in non-combat, etc. Thus it is only a first level spell with very limited use (HD restriction). From that points of view my personal feeling is that the feat as it is is overpowered.

And the Rainbow Pattern example is even more extreme. Rainbow Pattern raised via this feat to a 6th level spell can captivate up to 72 (!) HD of creatures (best circumstances).

Originally posted by Cheiromancer
Comparison with Heighten Spell is a little unfair (Heighten Spell is a weak feat). And Heighten Spell is more flexible- you can raise a spell by +1, or up to 9th level. And it always affects the save DC's- not just for creatures with low hit dice.

Just apply your feat often enough, and you get a save DC increase much better than any Heighten Spell can do. And that should not be the main effect!
I just think it is not necessary to increase the save DC. The HD-change effect itself is good enough for itself. And it would make the feat more straightforward, since then it is the same as with the other metamagic feats: Empower empwers, but does not increase the save DC. Your feat increases the total HD affected, but does not increase the save DC. If you want to increase the save DC, use Heighten Spell.

 

[Cheiromancer]

damage dealing spells can get subdual substitution. That would knock folks out without killing them.

Those that don't get knocked out will probably only take a few more hp of damage before being forced unconscious. Again, I think Fireball is better. How many HD of creatures can a fireball kill? How many HD can a subdual-substituted fireball knock out? A heck of a lot more than 72 HD, if they are 2 or 3 HD critters.

And say you push Sleep to its maximum- A 9th level spell. It is awesome against creatures of 8 HD or less. But compare with Holy Word (Blasphemy, Word of Chaos, Dictum), and it is nothing special.

But as to whether it is overpowered or not, I think we might have to agree to disagree.

Perhaps after thinking about your arguments for a few days, and play-testing a little, I might come around to your point of view. I'll just have to wait and see.

Regards,