Impromptu Stream with Ed Greenwood, Tim Kask, & TSR CCO

[Umbran]

However words and phrases like "Woke mob" and "Those people" are dead giveaways. I'd think Ed and Tim would have known better.

I haven't watched the video - if those words weren't used in direct conversation with them (like, if they were used in the description of the video, or by hosts before they entered the video) don't assume they knew about the presence of those phrases.

 

[Malmuria]

I haven't watched the video - if those words weren't used in direct conversation with them (like, if they were used in the description of the video, or by hosts before they entered the video) don't assume they knew about the presence of those phrases.

Kask used the phrase Woke Mob himself in a FB post, which was shared on the screen for a good part of the discussion. The moderator not only used those phrases but droned on and on about them. Greenwood and Kask both took issue to the changes in dnd races, and the implication that there was ever anything problematic about them, which is probably a take that most dnd fans share, but they were explicitly positioned as victims over and over.

 

[billd91]

Kask used the phrase Woke Mob himself in a FB post, which was shared on the screen for a good part of the discussion. The moderator not only used those phrases but droned on and on about them. Greenwood and Kask both took issue to the changes in dnd races, and the implication that there was ever anything problematic about them, which is probably a take that most dnd fans share, but they were explicitly positioned as victims over and over.

Even on the left you see people shaking their heads and rolling their eyes at the "woke Olympics". The difference is it's complaining about some of the extremism and/or slacktivism while operating generally on the same side of the political spectrum. So I wouldn't read too much into Kask using the term.

 

[MGibster]

Kask used the phrase Woke Mob himself in a FB post, which was shared on the screen for a good part of the discussion. The moderator not only used those phrases but droned on and on about them. Greenwood and Kask both took issue to the changes in dnd races, and the implication that there was ever anything problematic about them, which is probably a take that most dnd fans share, but they were explicitly positioned as victims over and over.

There's nothing wrong with taking issue to the changes WotC made to races in D&D. While I don't feel compelled to rail against the changes, that ship has sailed and nothing I say will change the direction, I don't particularly like the changes. Nor do I always agree with those who say something is problematic. And I can see why Kask and Greenwood might feel as though they're the victims here. Modern audiences are interpreting their work in a way that few people interpreted it forty years ago.

 

[Umbran]

And I can see why Kask and Greenwood might feel as though they're the victims here.

I have an image in my head of them visiting with the families of those who are on the business end of transphobia and racism - say, the families of those who have been brutalized for being what they are - and explaining how they, the old white guys who write games, feel they are the victims here.

If they feel they are the victims, they have rather missed the point.

 

[billd91]

I have an image in my head of them visiting with the families of those who are on the business end of transphobia and racism - say, the families of those who have been brutalized for being what they are - and explaining how they, the old white guys who write games, feel they are the victims here.

If they feel they are the victims, they have rather missed the point.

What you're exhibiting here, Umbran, is an attitude that collateral damage doesn't really matter. It's not like Kask and Greenwood are some kind of cackling conspirators fighting to uphold structures of cis-heteronormative racism. They just get swept up in the broad, rhetorical brushes because of what they are or for not being far more forward thinking than pretty much anybody could be expected to be 30-40 years ago.

Of course their victimhood isn't as significant as someone who's been on the business end of racism and transphobia. Do you think they're claiming it is? Or do you think the negative feelings they have about being swept up in all of this are invalid? It's possible to have due sympathies in multiple areas of this topic.

 

[Marc_C]

Some aspects of D&D (AD&D) have been problematic since the start. As a 15 year old in 1981 I could see that. We discusses these issues back then. These issues have been discussed for ever on forums and more recently on social media. These guys have known this for a very long time, decades.

 

[MGibster]

I have an image in my head of them visiting with the families of those who are on the business end of transphobia and racism - say, the families of those who have been brutalized for being what they are - and explaining how they, the old white guys who write games, feel they are the victims here.

Empathy isn’t a zero sum game and it’s not always useful to think of this in terms of who the real victim is. We can recognize a situation sucks for party A while simultaneously recognizing it’s much, much worse for party B.

 

[Umbran]

What you're exhibiting here, Umbran, is an attitude that collateral damage doesn't really matter.

Don't generalize my position, please. We are talking about Kask and Greenwood, specifically. What collateral damage are we talking about here? Can we name any meaningful damage either of these men has taken from the "woke mob" before this video came out? Thinking yourself a victim is sketchy when you have not actually suffered any real harm.

It's not like Kask and Greenwood are some kind of cackling conspirators fighting to uphold structures of cis-heteronormative racism.

No, but then I didn't suggest they were, so I find that a pretty big strawman.

They just get swept up in the broad, rhetorical brushes because of what they are or for not being far more forward thinking than pretty much anybody could be expected to be 30-40 years ago.

So, with respect, I have seen no sign prior to this that they've gotten "swept up" with anything. Greenwood has faced some entirely legitimate criticism for some aspects of his works that were less than great even when they were written. I've not seen anything much bad said about Kask prior to now. I mean, neither one of them has been terribly relevant for long time, but that was just natural slipping into irrelevance that happens to most authors over time.

From what I see, they are now perhaps sweeping themselves up in things, choosing to vocally join in on a side that they historically haven't been part of - indeed, Greenwood has somewhat defended LGBTQ+ representation before, when there was some controversy around one of the Baldur's Gate games.

Of course their victimhood isn't as significant as someone who's been on the business end of racism and transphobia. Do you think they're claiming it is?

No. I have seen no evidence that they have actually been victims, though. They were made largely irrelevant to the gaming community by time, not by the "woke mob".

Or do you think the negative feelings they have about being swept up in all of this are invalid?

I don't know that they have, "negative feelings about being swept up". I've seen no quotes from them specifying that. I am not going to spend three hours watching a video to find them, when I'm not the one asserting that they have those feelings.

It's possible to have due sympathies in multiple areas of this topic.

I find a fundamental inconsistency with claiming multiple, complex, nuanced sympathies for yourself, while labeling others as, "the woke mob," and blaming them for your problems.

 

[Umbran]

We can recognize a situation sucks for party A

I would like to see some evidence that it actually sucks for Party A in some meaningful way.