Improper CR of the Arrow Demon: An Analysis

[Saeviomagy]

Dimensional Anchor, a 4th level Cleric/Wizard spell should reduce the risk of creatures teleporting out of fights starting at level 7.

A 4th level spell that is largely useless unless you KNOW you're facing someone or something that will be teleporting. 4th level spells aren't exactly throwaways.

 

[Coredump]

Here is my problem with comparisons like this.

CR is *not* meant as a comparison of how powerful two creatures are. It is meant as a comparison of how difficult they are to kill by a group of adventurers.

With that in mind, many of the 'advantages' of the arrow demon just aren't that important.


The real test is to have the NPC and the Demon both fight a party of 4 characters, and see if there is a large difference in how hard they are to kill. *Not* just look at a list of powers. When the creature is only going to live for a few rounds.... many of those become less impressive.

 

[Saeviomagy]

Here is my problem with comparisons like this.

CR is *not* meant as a comparison of how powerful two creatures are. It is meant as a comparison of how difficult they are to kill by a group of adventurers.

With that in mind, many of the 'advantages' of the arrow demon just aren't that important.

I really don't see how you can come to this conclusion, unless you play the creature as though it is somehow mentally retarded.

The real test is to have the NPC and the Demon both fight a party of 4 characters, and see if there is a large difference in how hard they are to kill. *Not* just look at a list of powers. When the creature is only going to live for a few rounds.... many of those become less impressive.

The creature is unlikely to drop in only a few rounds if played intelligently - noone will be able to close with it, and most groups only include 1 capable archer, and often that guy is going to have serious problems against a creature requiring dr good AND cold iron.

The creature has spell resistance and a decent list of other resistances and immunities.

It also has very high move silently and hide skill modifiers.

Assuming a standard 4-person iconic party with unusually high stats:

I expect the creatures first attack action (2d10+16 damage, average 27) to seriously scare the party wizard (6+(1d4+2)x6 hit points, average 30) if not drop him. If the thing wins initiative, then the wizard is almost certainly dead. At which point the party is dow to their archer to save the day (certainly I don't see them having a hope of closing with a creature that has DD unlimited/day). If the guy is seriously well built (ie - the one given here), he can trade blows for a while, but will eventually lose.

 

[IcyCool]

I expect the creatures first attack action (2d10+16 damage, average 27) to seriously scare the party wizard (6+(1d4+2)x6 hit points, average 30) if not drop him. If the thing wins initiative, then the wizard is almost certainly dead. At which point the party is dow to their archer to save the day (certainly I don't see them having a hope of closing with a creature that has DD unlimited/day). If the guy is seriously well built (ie - the one given here), he can trade blows for a while, but will eventually lose.

So now the demon has gone from mentally retarded to clairvoyant? How does he know which individual is a wizard, which is a cleric, which is a fighter, and which is a rogue? He's probably got a good guess as to who the cleric and fighter are, but not which is which. Why don't all of the characters have a backup ranged weapon? Why can't the cleric hurt him with a flamestrike?

Maybe the arrow demon has been lucky enough to stumble across "Skippy the Wonder Wizard and his party of Idiot Savants."

And why-oh-why is an outsider (one of the best monsters around) being compared with a human NPC (one of the worst monsters around)? Why not compare it with another CR 7 or so outsider? Doesn't an Erinyes fit that bill?

 

[Shin Okada]

So now the demon has gone from mentally retarded to clairvoyant? How does he know which individual is a wizard, which is a cleric, which is a fighter, and which is a rogue? He's probably got a good guess as to who the cleric and fighter are, but not which is which. Why don't all of the characters have a backup ranged weapon? Why can't the cleric hurt him with a flamestrike?

Yeah! Now my current 9th-level PC party have,

1. A human-like guy in Heavy Plate with a big sword, and have a holy symbol and spell component pouch.
2. Another human-like guy in Heavy Plate with a big sword, and have a holy symbol and spell component pouch.
3. Another human-like guy in Full-Plate with a longspear, and have a holy symbol and spell component pouch.
4. A Dwarf in Heavy Plate with a Big Axe, and have a spell component pouch.
5. A human-like guy in chain-shirt and a heavy shield & a morningster, and have a holy symbol and spell component pouch.

Now demon, guess who is the ranged threat, who is the soft target & who is the healer!

Answer,
The 4th PC is the party's main wizard, a Runsmith actually (has AC of 26 or so and Hp of 60+). And the 2nd guy is a fighter/mage type multiclass who also shoots Fireball or or other attack spells at full CL. The 3rd guy is the party's main cleric. Who do Flamestrike. The 2nd guy can cast Cure Serious Wounds, too as he has Arcane Disciple Healing feat. And the 5th-guy is Rogue/Cleric type (Shadowbane Stalker) and thus a good healer, too. And he is a really good ranged attack spell thrower.

 

[IanB]

And why-oh-why is an outsider (one of the best monsters around) being compared with a human NPC (one of the worst monsters around)? Why not compare it with another CR 7 or so outsider? Doesn't an Erinyes fit that bill?

Exactly. This thread should be titled "Improper CR of NPC enemies" I think.

 

[airwalkrr]

Exactly. This thread should be titled "Improper CR of NPC enemies" I think.

I disagree. My problem is not with the CR of NPCs. For the most part they deliver the challenge they ought to deliver, that is, expending 20% of a party's reasources when they are the same CR as the party level (bear in mind I'm assuming a "typical" D&D party). No, my problem is that the CR of monsters is quite often far and above that. A single arrow demon can wax a party of 7th-level adventurers if I play it right. I doubt it would be a total TPK since a party of that level usually has some resources up their sleeves that grant them the ability to flee, but it could easily be a rout. Now if the party is made up of characters with FR-style equipment and 36 point-buy, that's an entirely different story.