Improper CR of the Arrow Demon: An Analysis

[Saeviomagy]

I think that this is the problem:

The CRs assigned to outsiders are generally on crack. Whoever did it didn't have the foggiest idea what a normal PC would look like, or didn't have the slightest ability in comparing a PC and a monster.

Just take a look at half the outsiders in the book. Demons, devils and angels are generally:

Equipped with some magic gear.
Fight as well as a fighter (typically the improved stats, methods of movement and assorted special abilities more than make up for a lack of feats)
Cast as well (in a combat situation) as a caster (often with unlimited access to damage spells and some utility - unlimited greater teleport basically means that if the monster doesn't want to lose, it just leaves and the PCs can't do anything about it).
Have a bunch of abilities that it's simply not feasable for a PC to have - DR/alignment is the prime suspect. Usually high DR, and aligned weapons (at least in core rules) are very expensive.
Oh, and a heap of skill points.

Take a look at the erinyes for instance. CR 8. BAB as good as a 9th level fighter, more skill points than him, all good saves, a list of immunities and resistances as long as my arm, stats that for a PC would be off the charts, A +1 flaming composite mighty+5 longbow. Charm monster, unholy blight, mirror image and greater teleport at will and true seeing always on. A fly speed of 50ft (good). Lots of natural armour. Oh, and the only place she loses out is that she's got ONE feat less than the fighter.

And she's a CR lower than him... Excuse me? The same is true for most of the low-to-mid CR demons. No PC fighter is going to have enough magic to emulate what they've got, and yet they're a CR below him.

The angels do more or less the same thing.

 

[airwalkrr]

Comparing a CR 7 monster to a level 7 character is the wrong way to go about it. You should be using the monsters ECL give it appropriate gear and then compare it to an equally well equiped PC of the same ECL...

I understand your point, Aust Diamondew, but I think you misinterpretted what I was trying to do. I wasn't trying to see how the monster would fare in a party of similar-level characters, I was comparing one CR 7 encounter to another CR 7 encounter. My point was, if I were to generate a CR 7 encounter against an NPC build "by-the-book," it wouldn't be even remotely challenging to a party of 7th-level characters combined with the fight the demon would give it.

I think XP needs to be based more closely upon hit dice than anything. Either that, or class levels need to count less towards CR. After all, if a PC plays a monster class, the LA is always added to the HD to determine final ECL, but that monster's HD don't improve its CR anywhere near as much. I think the only thing that is presumed about NPCs that gives them an edge in the CR department is magical equipment, but that isn't very pronounced until around 10th-level and higher.

 

[frankthedm]

Outsiders also have a huge weakness to being sent back with a single spell. CR does have to factor that in.

Also MM3 CRs are set knowing the PCs have been kitted out with the splat material published for them, . So PCs with numbercrunched levels in PRCs get foes that are ready for them.

 

[Shin Okada]

I understand your point, Aust Diamondew, but I think you misinterpretted what I was trying to do. I wasn't trying to see how the monster would fare in a party of similar-level characters, I was comparing one CR 7 encounter to another CR 7 encounter. My point was, if I were to generate a CR 7 encounter against an NPC build "by-the-book," it wouldn't be even remotely challenging to a party of 7th-level characters combined with the fight the demon would give it.

IMHO, as I said before in the previous post, it is much better to compare a EL 11 encounter composed of four Arrow Demons against another EL 11 encounter composed of four 7th-level NPC group.

When just comparing, say, a giant against a NPC fighter type of the same CR, almost always, a giant look stronger. But 4 of the same monsters are sharing the same weakness which PCs can attack (say, bad Will save in case of Giant). On the other hand, a well-coordinated group of 4 NPCs can use spells and abilities to cover each one's weakness, or to enhance each one's strength. Thus, tend to be a tougher encounter than their individual specs.

 

[IanB]

I don't think the problem is necessarily that monsters are mis-CRed (although the arrow demon is certainly a candidate for that.)

The problem is that NPCs are over-CRed, unless they have excellent gear - but if you give NPCs excellent gear, the treasure curve of your game will be off the charts.

Except for Big Bad Evil Badguys and (usually) spellcasters it is probably more appropriate to give NPC characters a CR of somewhere around their actual level -1 to -3, depending on their equipment. In some cases it could be even lower.

 

[Krelios]

Again with thinking Monster CR = PC CR...

A CR 7 creature should be a good match for FOUR level 7 PCs--not one. If you compare that arrow demon to four of your archers, they clearly win (even though the build is suboptimal and they have a 29 Con somehow at level 7).

You can't compare a monster to a player and hope that level = CR will work; it's not designed to. Compare it to other CR 7 monsters for the challenge it will pose to a group of four 7th level players.

 

[Saeviomagy]

Outsiders also have a huge weakness to being sent back with a single spell. CR does have to factor that in.

A single spell that requires a save. There are lots of single spells that take out a target with a save. Saying "oh, there's one that specifically targets outsiders" is pretty lame - there are plenty that are more likely to be used that target pretty much anyone.

Oh, and Krelios. For NPCs CR=level. That's the way it's supposed to work. I understand that it doesn't always do so, and in some cases that is unavoidable (unusual combinations of equipment, weaknesses of specific classes etc). However there are some creatures which simply do not fit the CR/Power curve regardless of the situation, and almost all of them are mid-level outsiders.

 

[StormCrow42]

unlimited greater teleport basically means that if the monster doesn't want to lose, it just leaves and the PCs can't do anything about it).

Dimensional Anchor, a 4th level Cleric/Wizard spell should reduce the risk of creatures teleporting out of fights starting at level 7.

 

[Ovinomancer]

Dimensional Anchor, a 4th level Cleric/Wizard spell should reduce the risk of creatures teleporting out of fights starting at level 7.

This requires a touch attack, either from a class with horrible BAB (wizard/sorcerer), or a class that typically does not have a strong dex. Neither of which pick usually pick ranged attack feats, namely precise shot. Against a creature that ususally has a decent touch AC. And SR. Which works against Dim Anchor.

Still a viable tactic, but not one that is foolproof. And remember...most outsiders are rather intelligent (at least 14 and up INT), and are most likely aware of Dim Anchor and its danger to them. YMMV.

 

[airwalkrr]

You can't compare a monster to a player and hope that level = CR will work; it's not designed to.

That's just my point though; that IS the way it is designed to be. The CR of NPCs with class levels is equal to their class level. And encounters that have the same CR are supposed to be roughly equivalent in difficulty. What it boils down to is that the CR system is heinously flawed, at least for determining the CR of classed NPCs. The arrow demon is simply such an egregiously powerful example that it demonstrates this point easily.

I think that the criteria for determining CRs needs to be re-examined. IMHO, each character class is roughly the same (excluding the NPC classes like commoner of course). A fighter and a barbarian of the same level are going to provide a relatively even challenge to a party of PCs. A wizard and a sorcerer of the same level will also provide a relatively even challenge. And even though a fighter and a wizard are challenging in different ways, at the same level they will provide a roughly equivalent challenge. Where the system breaks down is when you expect a CR 10 barbarian to provide the same challenge as a CR 10 demon. That's when the system's flaws are revealed.

It shouldn't be that way. One CR 10 should provide about the same challenge to a party as the next CR 10. I'm not clamoring for perfect equality here; I know that's not humanly possible. But there needs to be a better balance. Whenever I'm playing a PC, I always prefer to fight NPCs over monsters because they award more experience points relative to the challenge they provide than monsters. But if we let our campaigns be that way, they'd get boring. People like fighting dragons and such.

I suggest the CR system be overhauled. It's tangential to the discussion of whether or not the arrow demon is improperly CRed. So I'm going to create a new thread to deal with this subject.