Improved Grab keeps killing PCs

[Starfox]

I thought the size modifiers to grapple were nonsensical, so I made grapple tests simple opposed attack rolls. That saved my players' hides until they all got Freedom of Movement.

 

[Zanticor]

After meeting a purple worm my players were so disgusted with attack of opportunity grabs that we just eliminated them. I houseruled you just can't sunder, trip or grapple with your attacks of opportunity. Still grab remains the best way to kill a mage but it is no longer a free action in my game. It makes me a bit more comfortable sending out the huge guns (although the ring of free action I gave out also helps a lot).

Zanticor

 

[roguerouge]

Just use the skill trick Easy Escape, which when you're trying to get out negates size bonuses to grapple 1/encounter. It's a great fix without a feat.

Edit: Alternatively, you can do what I do, which is to retreat and fire away.

 

[Mustrum_Ridcully]

I made a house rule making it easier for players to escape grapples (don't add in the defender's BAB on grapple checks), but I still haven't solved the problem of monsters that Improved Grab and constrict people to death. This is almost the only way I've ever seen a character die in my year of D&D -- to owlbears, to giant bears, to scorpions, and (nearly) giant crabs and rocs.

It's not the grapple checks. It's the fact that Improved Grab cuts off the possibility of retreat. You escape, you five-foot step, they hit you next round and grab you again. You escape and run, you get AoO'd and they grab you again. You can't do anything else either like drink a potion of gaseous form. You're just screwed, it seems like. What do you do about improved grab? Scout and only fight at range?

The abundance of monsters that got "Improved Grab" as an ability was probably one of the reasons why we knew the rules pretty well (though there were always corner cases we couldn't find satisfying answers for), and we also learned the defenses against it. We mostly relied on magic - Freedom of Movement, Dimension Door, Teleport are probably the best ways to escape, and since they can be cast from Scroll, it's a lot easier to have them around then forcing characters to take feats to negate grapple attempts. But these are also an option.

As a DM, I'd try to use more monsters that don't rely on Grab - even if they have it, their "shtick" might be something else, and they just won't use it in favor of other tactics.

Grappling has one inherent danger for most monsters - they lose their Dex Bonus to AC. So the party just needs to make sure it's not the Rogue (if any) that is grappled, and have the monster to learn to live with a -20 penalty to grapple checks or being sneak attacked to death. Now, Plants, Undeads and Constructs won't care about this, but they are not necessarily the type of monsters that rely most on it.

 

[Noumenon]

Thanks for all the replies. Close Quarters Fighting as a feat does not solve the problem for all PCs. I could house rule that all characters have close-quarters fighting -- wizards would still fear grapple, fighters would become better, I don't see a downside.

Solutions that don't work for me: I have never seen a party with access to Dimension Door or Freedom of Movement, even once much less regularly. D&D is low level most of the time for us. Freedom of Movement doesn't help anyway because it's touch range and single target. You will probably get grabbed yourself after casting it, especially if there are two grabbers.

Per an investigation I did, enlarging PCs or Easy Escape or giving them opposed attack rolls isn't going to help because it is the BAB -- not the size or strength modifiers -- that accounts for most of the advantage in grapples. I tested it from owlbears to dragons. Grease won't help because the reason I posted is that even if every PC had "auto succeed when escaping a grapple," they would not be able to get away from improved grabbers because of the AoOs/counterattacks.

FranktheDM has one thing I don't like and one I really do. I don't buy the contention that you can't use Improved Grab on AoOs because of a technicality about free actions. Not unless someone else agrees with it or shows a similar example where the no free action thing does apply, but it's still going to be arguable I bet.

However, his idea about making constrict damage nonlethal (with the grapple check damage still lethal, that's 50%) is really great -- I don't know if it will work, but I love it. It gives me an out as the DM that I can have the monster drop the unconscious PC to attack others. Otherwise I could never think of a reason to stop squeezing before killing. And it lets me use the monsters as written instead of having to figure out new feats for them. I like the idea of substituting a throw ability too, but this is the smallest possible change. I'll try it.

 

[Jhaelen]

Solutions that don't work for me: I have never seen a party with access to Dimension Door or Freedom of Movement, even once much less regularly. D&D is low level most of the time for us.

Well, you can get Dimension Hop at level 1.

Being prepared against grappling monsters is one of those things I consider crucial for a D&D party that wants to survive to get into the mid- to high levels. Other things EVERY party will have to put some thought into are:
- flying monsters
- insubstantial monsters
- constructs
- undead (especially the energy/attribute draining kind)
etc.

Maybe it's just my group but my players react very fast when they notice they have trouble with a certain type of encounters. They'll start buying items, retrain feats, spells, powers, etc. to be prepared for a future encounter of a similar kind.

 

[Noumenon]

Hm, in my short D&D career I haven't had to worry about any of those. Seen 'em all, but never feared 'em. The two things besides Improved Grab that have killed people are Con damage (giant bees, small vipers) and starting a fight with forty dwarven warriors when two of your party members are also dwarves who grew up in that town.

 

[ruemere]

This fix worked for me (for advantages of this solution, see below):

1. Head to www.paizo.com and grab Pahtfinder BETA rules.
In addition to providing you with entertaining read and mechanic improvements, you will also benefit from the list of streamlined combat maneuver mechanics.

2. Introduce CMB into your games. To summarize:

- CMB stands for Combat Maneuver Bonus (see 3. below for specifics)
- whenever you're supposed to resolve any maneuver in combat, instead of 3.5 resolution, just roll d20, add CMB and compare to target number

3. Apply my own fix to CMB formula:

Pathfinder CMB version, not recommended due to high level issues (at higher levels difference between CMBs is still too big):

CMB = BAB + STR + positive SIZE modifier

(Large Fighter 6 with 18 Strength: 6 + 4 + 1 = 11)

My fix:

CMB = 1/2*BAB + STR + positive SIZE modifier

(Large Fighter 6 with 18 Strength: 3 + 4 + 1 = 8)

4. Apply my own fix to Combat Maneuver DC:

Pathfinder Combat Maneuver DC version, not recommended due to high level issues (at higher levels difference between CMBs is still too big):

Combat Maneuver DC = 15 + CMB

(Large Fighter 6 with 18 Strength: 15 + 11 = 26)

My fix:

Combat Maneuver DC = 10 + CMB

(Large Fighter 6 with 18 Strength: 10 + 8 = 18)

5. Consequences.

All combat maneuvers work with a single roll and use unified mechanic - this is particularly noticeable during grapples and trips.
Fighters finally find their niche of expertise due to high BAB and primary Strength.
Thanks to my fix, at higher levels Fighters, while being noticeably better, do not render other classes irrelevant during Combat Maneuvers.
Thanks to my fix, at higher levels, Fighters themselves stand a chance against equal CR opponents (Pathfinder BETA rules render them ineffective due to high Strength and size difference).

regards,
Ruemere

 

[Noumenon]

Making the DC of combat maneuvers 10 instead of 15 helps a lot with getting PCs out of grapples. 1/2 BAB is also good because it lessens the monsters' main advantage. Still, as long as improved grab can start a new grapple every time you escape, you're not going to get anywhere.

 

[Mustrum_Ridcully]

If that is your specific problem, I'd suggest house ruling that first.


I am a fan of the CMB approach in general. Are they indeed removing the +4/+8/+12/+16 size modifiers or is that already part of your house rule, ruemere? I ask because I don't remember it from my read on the Beta a few months ago, and it was something that has bothered me a long time. The size modifiers just make grapple - and in fact, most combat maneuvers - just too hard against most monsters.

I am not sure the BAB thing is an issue, but the size modifiers on trip/grapple/disarm definitely are.